Archived posting to the Leica Users Group, 2009/01/18
[Author Prev] [Author Next] [Thread Prev] [Thread Next] [Author Index] [Topic Index] [Home] [Search]Lluis, I learned this lesson years ago, like you. I also had a dealer, now retired, who let me try anything at home. Most of what I use now I bought from him over the years, the most recent about 10 years ago, based on listening. I am still very happy! 20 years after having been so impressed by how much less parasitic interference there was on the pickup signal using a Goldmund reference turntable I managed to track down a used one in good mechanical condition at a not too extreme price. That is what I now use. best regards, Frank On 17 Jan, 2009, at 18:48, Lluis Ripoll wrote: > Hi Frank, > > Thank you for your good explanation, you have a really good > knowledge, the problem with the Hi-Fi is as you know that the prices > to improve quality increase geometrically, in other words, if your > actual investiment is level 10 to have a quality level 15 you should > pay 20, and to have a quality 23 you should pay 35... In my > experience when I've purchased something I've paid attention to the > differences etc.., even the shop who sells me they know me after I > was very young and they leave me the things at home to try and > compare..., but once you buy it you are used to listen and many, > many times I don't pay attention to the details that make better an > outfit over the other. > > Saludos cordiales > Lluis > > > > > El 17/01/2009, a las 19:03, Frank Dernie escribi?: > >> Hi Lluis! >> Before I took up my current career I did R&D and design of record >> players. You are absolutely right, the requirement of the turntable >> is to rotate at constant speed and no sound parasites. The >> technical problem is to achieve this. No turntable I have ever >> measured or heard actually achieves it. Our ears are more sensitive >> than any transducer in both frequency and amplitude. There is -no- >> turntable ever made which produces no sound parasites, and the vast >> majority produce a lot of sound parasites and at quite high level. >> Clever designers design their players so the parasitic resonances >> and feedback are at frequencies and "Q" that listeners find >> pleasant. Many record players I have measured have very obviously >> been tuned to only add harmonious "interference". >> There was one very highly regarded SME arm, the 3009, which had >> such energetic resonances that they could be seen as big peaks on >> the curve if one was trying to measure a pickup cartridge, the >> signal added by this arm at some frequencies was louder than the >> original music! The other thing difficult to avoid is the time >> delayed feedback from the sound in the room, both structure-borne >> and airborne. >> >> A few people have tried to lower there parasitics considerably. The >> ones I have seen which do this in a technically sound way are >> Goldmund and Continuum (there are others who get part way there at >> a less "no compromise price"). I am familiar with the Goldmund (the >> original not the new limited edition one which seems ludicrously >> expensive) Of all those I know it allows by far the lowest level of >> parasitic interference get to the pickup cartridge. What Continuum >> print is technically very sound. I would not be surprised to find >> it superior to the Goldmund in these respects. >> >> The Clearaudio is based on pseudo-technical gobbledygook which is >> either there to keep their secrets or, looking at the design, >> simply to separate clients from their cash. In my opinion. >> >> The pickup cartridge is, as you say, very important. I also use an >> Ortofon. In fact the generator design and pivot damping dominate >> the characteristics at lower frequencies. As frequencies increase >> the shape of the stylus tip is increasingly important, I forget the >> frequency limit for the original spherical tips but at a >> surprisingly low frequency the radius of the tip is bigger than the >> curve it would have to follow in the groove. At this point it >> starts being very inaccurate. The best stylus tips are very >> expensive. All this is wasted however if the turntable and arm >> either generate parasites or allow feedback through. All turntables >> do to a surprisingly high degree, the nice ones are the ones that >> add harmonious interference! >> >> best regards, >> >> Frank >> >> >> On 17 Jan, 2009, at 16:26, Lluis Ripoll wrote: >> >>> Frank, >>> >>> This is a beautiful "toy"! >>> >>> In my opinion the turntable is not a "main element", the capsule >>> could be more important. For me the work of a turntable should be: >>> constant speed, and no sound parasites, the good work is do by the >>> rest of the installation and also a vey important thing, I've >>> expend some money on have good cables and connectors. My turntable >>> is a Lenco L-78 from the 70's with an Ortophon capsule and it >>> still sound very good, enought for me. >>> >>> Saludos cordiales >>> Lluis >>> >>> >>> El 17/01/2009, a las 11:32, Frank Dernie escribi?: >>> >>>> I know most of you will think this high price stuff is a joke, >>>> and at this price (and actually, looking at the design as a >>>> person who used to design high end turntables >30 years ago, this >>>> particular item is a victory for marketing). The most important >>>> engineering aspects for a turntable to work well are not >>>> addressed in this design, more a styling/marketing exercise (IMHO). >>>> It is actually extremely high tech to produce a device to >>>> transduce records without adding some, or a lot, of non signal >>>> related vibrations ends up being added to the output by the >>>> machine. A record playing device which works well is likely to >>>> cost several orders on magnitude more than any CD player, and is >>>> probably not worth it........ >>>> The device I have measured and listened to which is the most >>>> accurate, the Goldmund Reference was very expensive (not as much >>>> as this thing though) and made in tiny quantities. >>>> >>>> There is a very expensive turntable system which, based on my >>>> knowledge, probably is the most accurate one available. It >>>> cleverly addresses all the important requirements I know of. I >>>> have never seen or listened to one. >>>> >>>> http://www.continuumaudiolabs.com/ >>>> >>>> but not as pretty. >>>> FWIW, >>>> Frank >>>> >>>> >>>> On 16 Jan, 2009, at 20:17, Henning Wulff wrote: >>>> >>>>> At 12:26 PM -0700 1/16/09, Greg Lorenzo wrote: >>>>>> George Lottermoser writes:> > >>>>>> <http://www.cnn.com/2009/TECH/01/16/ces.luxury.turntable/index.html? >>>>>> > iref=mpstoryview>> > nonsensically cryptic,> george >>>>>> >>>>>> Quoted from the link: >>>>>> >>>>>> "When I look at it," said Placido Pappalardo, co-owner of maker >>>>>> Angelis Labor, "the only word that comes to mind is love." >>>>>> >>>>>> The first word that came to my mind was 'stupid'. >>>>>> >>>>>> Greg Lorenzo >>>>>> Calgary, Canada >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> How about this one for $125,000? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> http://www.musicalsurroundings.com/clearaudio/CAstatement.html >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> But the tonearms are included. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> * Henning J. Wulff >>>>> /|\ Wulff Photography & Design >>>>> /###\ mailto:henningw@archiphoto.com >>>>> |[ ]| http://www.archiphoto.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Leica Users Group. >>>>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more >>>>> information >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Leica Users Group. >>>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more >>>> information >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Leica Users Group. >>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Leica Users Group. >> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information > > > > _______________________________________________ > Leica Users Group. > See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information