Archived posting to the Leica Users Group, 2009/01/18

[Author Prev] [Author Next] [Thread Prev] [Thread Next] [Author Index] [Topic Index] [Home] [Search]

Subject: [Leica] more audiophilia spectacularly OT but interesting to a few
From: Frank.Dernie at btinternet.com (Frank Dernie)
Date: Sun Jan 18 00:49:02 2009
References: <95E9458A-6E41-4A2D-86F8-A919380FA32B@mac.com> <COL119-W6279E98543A1FB49A6154882D40@phx.gbl> <p06230923c5969b79af39@[10.0.1.200]> <69F35E33-20A0-4278-ACC3-AD8B57F9BAD1@btinternet.com> <6C0FC57D-5655-4108-817C-F0ED182C9D07@telefonica.net> <E861974B-0FFB-4007-957D-40ABA34B29D1@btinternet.com> <24308FB3-4193-4A29-A432-D9118019646E@telefonica.net>

Lluis,
I learned this lesson years ago, like you. I also had a dealer, now  
retired, who let me try anything at home. Most of what I use now I  
bought from him over the years, the most recent about 10 years ago,  
based on listening. I am still very happy!
20 years after having been so impressed by how much less parasitic  
interference there was on the pickup signal using a Goldmund reference  
turntable I managed to track down a used one in good mechanical  
condition at a not too extreme price. That is what I now use.
best regards,
Frank

On 17 Jan, 2009, at 18:48, Lluis Ripoll wrote:

> Hi Frank,
>
> Thank you for your good explanation, you have a really good  
> knowledge, the problem with the Hi-Fi is as you know that the prices  
> to improve quality increase geometrically, in other words, if your  
> actual investiment is level 10 to have a quality level 15 you should  
> pay 20, and to have a quality 23 you should pay 35... In my  
> experience when I've purchased something I've paid attention to the  
> differences etc.., even the shop who sells me they know me after I  
> was very young and they leave me the things at home to try and  
> compare..., but once you buy it you are used to listen and many,  
> many times I don't pay attention to the details that make better an  
> outfit over the other.
>
> Saludos cordiales
> Lluis
>
>
>
>
> El 17/01/2009, a las 19:03, Frank Dernie escribi?:
>
>> Hi Lluis!
>> Before I took up my current career I did R&D and design of record  
>> players. You are absolutely right, the requirement of the turntable  
>> is to rotate at constant speed and no sound parasites. The  
>> technical problem is to achieve this. No turntable I have ever  
>> measured or heard actually achieves it. Our ears are more sensitive  
>> than any transducer in both frequency and amplitude. There is -no-  
>> turntable ever made which produces no sound parasites, and the vast  
>> majority produce a lot of sound parasites and at quite high level.  
>> Clever designers design their players so the parasitic resonances  
>> and feedback are at frequencies and "Q" that listeners find  
>> pleasant. Many record players I have measured have very obviously  
>> been tuned to only add harmonious "interference".
>> There was one very highly regarded SME arm, the 3009, which had  
>> such energetic resonances that they could be seen as big peaks on  
>> the curve if one was trying to measure a pickup cartridge, the  
>> signal added by this arm at some frequencies was louder than the  
>> original music! The other thing difficult to avoid is the time  
>> delayed feedback from the sound in the room, both structure-borne  
>> and airborne.
>>
>> A few people have tried to lower there parasitics considerably. The  
>> ones I have seen which do this in a technically sound way are  
>> Goldmund and Continuum (there are others who get part way there at  
>> a less "no compromise price"). I am familiar with the Goldmund (the  
>> original not the new limited edition one which seems ludicrously  
>> expensive) Of all those I know it allows by far the lowest level of  
>> parasitic interference get to the pickup cartridge. What Continuum  
>> print is technically very sound. I would not be surprised to find  
>> it superior to the Goldmund in these respects.
>>
>> The Clearaudio is based on pseudo-technical gobbledygook which is  
>> either there to keep their secrets or, looking at the design,  
>> simply to separate clients from their cash. In my opinion.
>>
>> The pickup cartridge is, as you say, very important. I also use an  
>> Ortofon. In fact the generator design and pivot damping dominate  
>> the characteristics at lower frequencies. As frequencies increase  
>> the shape of the stylus tip is increasingly important, I forget the  
>> frequency limit for the original spherical tips but at a  
>> surprisingly low frequency the radius of the tip is bigger than the  
>> curve it would have to follow in the groove. At this point it  
>> starts being very inaccurate. The best stylus tips are very  
>> expensive. All this is wasted however if the turntable and arm  
>> either generate parasites or allow feedback through. All turntables  
>> do to a surprisingly high degree, the nice ones are the ones that  
>> add harmonious interference!
>>
>> best regards,
>>
>> Frank
>>
>>
>> On 17 Jan, 2009, at 16:26, Lluis Ripoll wrote:
>>
>>> Frank,
>>>
>>> This is a beautiful "toy"!
>>>
>>> In my opinion the turntable is not a "main element", the capsule  
>>> could be more important. For me the work of a turntable should be:  
>>> constant speed, and no sound parasites, the good work is do by the  
>>> rest of the installation and also a vey important thing, I've  
>>> expend some money on have good cables and connectors. My turntable  
>>> is a Lenco L-78 from the 70's with an Ortophon capsule and it  
>>> still sound very good, enought for me.
>>>
>>> Saludos cordiales
>>> Lluis
>>>
>>>
>>> El 17/01/2009, a las 11:32, Frank Dernie escribi?:
>>>
>>>> I know most of you will think this high price stuff is a joke,  
>>>> and at this price (and actually, looking at the design as a  
>>>> person who used to design high end turntables >30 years ago, this  
>>>> particular item is a victory for marketing). The most important  
>>>> engineering aspects for a turntable to work well are not  
>>>> addressed in this design, more a styling/marketing exercise (IMHO).
>>>> It is actually extremely high tech to produce a device to  
>>>> transduce records without adding some, or a lot, of non signal  
>>>> related vibrations ends up being added to the output by the  
>>>> machine. A record playing device which works well is likely to  
>>>> cost several orders on  magnitude more than any CD player, and is  
>>>> probably not worth it........
>>>> The device I have measured and listened to which is the most  
>>>> accurate, the Goldmund Reference was very expensive (not as much  
>>>> as this thing though) and made in tiny quantities.
>>>>
>>>> There is a very expensive turntable system which, based on my  
>>>> knowledge, probably is the most accurate one available. It  
>>>> cleverly addresses all the important requirements I know of. I  
>>>> have never seen or listened to one.
>>>>
>>>> http://www.continuumaudiolabs.com/
>>>>
>>>> but not as pretty.
>>>> FWIW,
>>>> Frank
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 16 Jan, 2009, at 20:17, Henning Wulff wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> At 12:26 PM -0700 1/16/09, Greg Lorenzo wrote:
>>>>>> George Lottermoser writes:> > 
>>>>>> <http://www.cnn.com/2009/TECH/01/16/ces.luxury.turntable/index.html?  
>>>>>> > iref=mpstoryview>> > nonsensically cryptic,> george
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Quoted from the link:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "When I look at it," said Placido Pappalardo, co-owner of maker  
>>>>>> Angelis Labor, "the only word that comes to mind is love."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The first word that came to my mind was 'stupid'.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Greg Lorenzo
>>>>>> Calgary, Canada
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> How about this one for $125,000?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.musicalsurroundings.com/clearaudio/CAstatement.html
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> But the tonearms are included.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -- 
>>>>>
>>>>> *            Henning J. Wulff
>>>>> /|\      Wulff Photography & Design
>>>>> /###\   mailto:henningw@archiphoto.com
>>>>> |[ ]|     http://www.archiphoto.com
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Leica Users Group.
>>>>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more  
>>>>> information
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Leica Users Group.
>>>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more  
>>>> information
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Leica Users Group.
>>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Leica Users Group.
>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Leica Users Group.
> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information



Replies: Reply from topoxforddoc at btinternet.com (Charlie Chan) ([Leica] more audiophilia spectacularly OT but interesting to a few)
In reply to: Message from imagist3 at mac.com (George Lottermoser) ([Leica] more audiophilia)
Message from gregj_lorenzo at hotmail.com (Greg Lorenzo) ([Leica] more audiophilia)
Message from henningw at archiphoto.com (Henning Wulff) ([Leica] more audiophilia)
Message from Frank.Dernie at btinternet.com (Frank Dernie) ([Leica] more audiophilia spectacularly OT but interesting to a few)
Message from luisripoll at telefonica.net (Lluis Ripoll) ([Leica] more audiophilia spectacularly OT but interesting to a few)
Message from Frank.Dernie at btinternet.com (Frank Dernie) ([Leica] more audiophilia spectacularly OT but interesting to a few)
Message from luisripoll at telefonica.net (Lluis Ripoll) ([Leica] more audiophilia spectacularly OT but interesting to a few)