Archived posting to the Leica Users Group, 2008/12/20

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Subject: [Leica] Quality (was un-believable)
From: imagist3 at (Lottermoser George)
Date: Sat Dec 20 06:38:05 2008
References: <>

For clarification:
Image qualities which I appreciate:
maximum fine detail rendering
maximum dynamic range
smooth bokeh
film-like rendering of noise (if and when it appears)
The M8 and DMR provide more of each of the above
than my 5D
While I also appreciate the 5D "real estate"
as well as its auto features on occasion

Build qualities I appreciate:
simple (as possible)
fit and finish
The M8 and DMR provide more of these
than my 5D which is more like an electronic device
than a mechanical camera.
Again I do understand and appreciate
when auto is the "simple" choice

Ergonomic qualities:
buttons, levers, switches, focusing and aperture rings
The M8 and DMR put them where I expect them to be
(because I spent a lot of time M6's and R8's)
The 5D I have to relearn almost every time I pick it up
and the lack of reasonable manual focus and aperture ring
drives me nuts.

None of this intends to denigrate the 5D which is fine enough piece  
of gear.
And I can't wait to get my hands on a 5D Mark II and check it out.

At some point quality becomes a personal evaluation.
And it is not just about real estate.

For me: the M8 and DMR sensor/software
beats the 5D sensor/software
in spite of real estate


Fond regards,

On Dec 20, 2008, at 12:22 AM, Mark Rabiner wrote:

> Talking about the "quality" of the M8 sensor against the "quality"  
> of the
> sensors most serious amateurs and pros are using is a blurring of a
> simplification of the issue.
> Like talking about the "Quality" of a film Hasselblad over a Canon  
> camera.
> Or the "Quality" of a Nikon over an Olympus FT.
> "Quality" has surprisingly little to do with it.
> Its real estate. And not location location location but:
> Size of the plot. Acreage. Square feet. Square yards. Meter.
> The build of the camera has little to do with it.
> The wonderfulness of how flat it holds the film....
> A cheap termite ridden 4x5 will give a way superior image over roll  
> film
> every time... With a fungus ridden optic on it. It doesn't even  
> have to try
> very hard.  Tap dance on your wet negs on your darkroom floor. Its  
> hard to
> mess of the brilliant superiority of sheet film.
> The M8 is a half frame camera. Digital. But half frame
> The rest of the serious shooting world has moved up to full 24x36  
> frame.
> The sensor can be really great which I'm sure it is but its not  
> going to go
> up against a sensor twice its length across.
> It's not going to go up against a HALF ASSED sensor twice its  
> length across.
> In another time warp dimension What if Barnack decided not to go  
> "double
> frame" which was what 24x36 was then called then but was  
> intractable in the
> ongoing working movie film frame size at the time called "single  
> frame" or
> 18x24????
> We'd not be talking about Barnack at this point because no one  
> would have
> heard of him and this would be the Leica historic list not the  
> Leica users
> list..
> Leica would have been quickly eclipsed by Nikon and Canon and  
> Pentax in the
> 30's and it would be a distant memory of a microscope company who  
> made real
> high quality half frame cameras in the 20's then went under in the  
> 30's
> depression.
> And that's what could happen now.
> With the S2 aimed squarely at one out of 100 thousand pros and serious
> amateurs who have a decimal point less cash to blow on gear than is  
> the
> price point of the S2.
> 20,000 big E's.
> What does Leica have which is going to go up against a Nikon D3,  
> D3x or D700
> with a 14-24 2.8 ultra wide zoom on it
> or a Canon full frame with their ultra wide zoom on it? ......
> .... A Zoom Super Wide Angle EF 16-35mm f/2.8L II USM AutoFocus Lens?
> (whatever Canon has which is going to go up against Nikons 14-24  
> 2.8 you're
> going to have to tune in next week for. As that's how long it will  
> take
> Canon to reply to the Nikon challenge. NOT the end of next summer)
> Days not seasons.
> Mark William Rabiner
>> From: Lottermoser George <>
>> Reply-To: Leica Users Group <>
>> Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 19:24:41 -0600
>> To: Leica Users Group <>
>> Subject: Re: [Leica] un-believable
>> I'll take the fine detail and dynamic range
>> over
>> the high ISO auto noise reduction
>> every time
>> Would I like ISO 64,000 with no noise
>> AND the M8 detail and dynamic range
>> You bet. Maybe someday I'll have it.
>> For now. Simply love the M8 and the photographs it produces.
>> Fond regards,
>> George
>> On Dec 19, 2008, at 7:06 PM, Sonny Carter wrote:
>>>> The M8 has been out since 2006. So has the D80. Each camera has  
>>>> 10.1
>>>> megapixels, decent noise per ISO, but the price was very different.
>> _______________________________________________
>> Leica Users Group.
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Replies: Reply from drodgers at (David Rodgers) ([Leica] Quality (was un-believable))
Reply from sonc.hegr at (Sonny Carter) ([Leica] Quality (was un-believable))
In reply to: Message from mark at (Mark Rabiner) ([Leica] un-believable)