Archived posting to the Leica Users Group, 2014/04/07

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Subject: [Leica] Leica R system
From: red735i at (Frank Filippone)
Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2014 22:52:19 -0700
References: <> <> <0cb601cf52b8$78b45ce0$6a1d16a0$> <>

Competing in a small market with a more pricey product, against an
entrenched user base, is, to say the least, a very risky undertaking.

Hassy D-MF prices were/are substantially less than Leica, and they offer
discounts quite often....  Leica just offered $5K off the price of some
gear, but it was the first time they did it.....

Everyone wants to talk about the quality aspects, but the real question is
if the quality improvement ( if there is one) is required in the market....

I still believe the biggest user of the D-MF stuff is well healed
amateurs...... because the improved quality ( if there is one) is not
required by pros, in general.

Wants and needs differ.

The image result of Bob Adler's Phase One back on his ALPA camera is simply
amazing.  I am convinced there is an improvement of D-MF over DSLR.  That
does not change my mind... The D-MF market is tiny and Hasselblad owns it.
I do not see that changing.  Nor do I see Pros switching over to it...

Is the market for D-MF growing?  I have no idea... but with the resolution
of DSLRs at 36MP, at $2300, vs a D-MF at 4 times that price plus double to
quadruple the price of optics, D-MF is never going to be a major market...
unless you must have the extra umph that D-MF gives.  Big prints?  Some
esoteric scientific purpose?  Not for Joe Average / baby / boudoir
/kid/family / team-sport photographers..... some of the main markets.  

I recently read somewhere that Leica has taken a 20% share of the D-MF
market.... Maybe that is satisfactory for them....

Watch the date of publication before you get too upset......

BTW, I am the person that is really trying to get used to the idea of using
Nikon and leaving Leica behind.... D-MF is a pipe dream for me.  The next
new camera I would buy can not be a Leica anything.  They are just too
expensive.  My M9, and, in the future, the others I buy used, are about as
far as I can take the Leica body price game.....  I was an am a proponent of
the Sony A7r, I own and use a Fuji XE-1.  What would quickly sway me is a
EVF Nikon SLR.

I ran my Nikon 50/1.4 ( AIS, AF, and G) lenses against the Leica 50Lux
ASPH... there is no question, the Lux blows the Nikons out of the game....

Wants vs needs.  Sometimes practicality wins out.......

Frank Filippone
Red735i at

They decided to compete with Hasselblad and Phaseone Frank. It is a tiny
tiny market yes. Leica's prices there are broadly comparable in fact, they
offer something significantly different and they have increased their market
share. The R10 body was to have been in the order of twice the price of the
pro Canon and Nikon bodies. Now that the medium format sensors are evolving
I think that tiny market will be even more interesting.
Having been fortunate to shoot an S side by side with my M I promise you
that there is a big difference


> On 8 Apr 2014, at 9:24 am, "Frank Filippone" <red735i at> 
> wrote:
> And so they decided not to compete with the Japanese DSLRs, instead to 
> compete with the Japanese MF-DSLRs....  A smaller market with 
> entrenched users, Leica at much higher prices than the competition, 
> and with the 35mm DSLR's adding capability, more MP and significantly 
> lower prices than the MF-DSLR.
> I do not see a big difference,,,, but then I do not work at Leica.
> I always believed the S product family was a competitive/commercial 
> mistake....
> Frank Filippone
> Red735i at
> While Leica Camera wanted to provide a vehicle for the existing R 
> lenses their analysis was that those people on their own were just not 
> a sufficient market to make the new camera a commercial success. They 
> elected of course to proceed with their 'middle format' S system 
> instead. The R10 at a much higher price would have had to compete 
> directly with the Japanese designs which dominate the market. At the 
> same time the M9 was in development in house and concurrent with the S 
> system design and their resources were stretched. As it turned out the 
> M9 was more successful than was anticipated and while the S2 camera got to
market the (CS) lenses for it were delayed.
> Cheers
> Geoff
> _______________________________________________
> Leica Users Group.
> See for more information

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In reply to: Message from lrzeitlin at (lrzeitlin at ([Leica] Leica R system)
Message from hopsternew at (Geoff Hopkinson) ([Leica] Leica R system)
Message from red735i at (Frank Filippone) ([Leica] Leica R system)
Message from hopsternew at (Geoff Hopkinson) ([Leica] Leica R system)