Archived posting to the Leica Users Group, 2012/12/09

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Subject: [Leica] Desensitization
From: mark at rabinergroup.com (Mark Rabiner)
Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2012 23:08:45 -0500

You'd want to  call it from the southern standpoint the "war of northern
aggression"  rather than the war of "we were being total A-holes and the
north had to put an end to it" aggression.

Mark William Rabiner
Photography
http://gallery.leica-users.org/v/lugalrabs/


> From: Bill Larsen <von-ohlen at sbcglobal.net>
> Reply-To: Leica Users Group <lug at leica-users.org>
> Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2012 16:59:55 -0800
> To: Leica Users Group <lug at leica-users.org>
> Subject: Re: [Leica] Desensitization
> 
> Douglas Barry the answers you are getting here are somewhat simplistic.
> And I am not quite knowledgeable enough to really furnish any light.
> The term is "war of northern aggression"  as other have wrote is much
> more complex.  It really wasn't about slavery other than in a tangential
> manner.  It was a civil war.  And like all civil war very nasty.  I
> might point out that there was not a totally uniform opinion about  it
> in any state.  Brothers were pitted against brothers (and I mean in the
> family rather than the society). States like North Carolina and Virginia
> had people fighting in both armies.  And apparently it is not a conflict
> that has healed yet.
> On 12/9/2012 4:15 PM, Don Dory wrote:
>> Ric, while slavery was the proximate cause of the war, most of the 
>> response
>> was the truly great debate about the nature of the union.  Many in the
>> Southern States truly believed in the State first and the union second.
>>   Lee is the perfect example of one who abhorred slavery but so loved his
>> Virginia that he declined the honor of leading the Union Armies in the
>> invasion of Virginia.
>> 
>> Of course political power and the wealth that flowed from that had a lot 
>> to
>> do with the ultimate war.  With Lincoln as president there was no doubt
>> that the new states joining the union would be free states that would
>> ultimately change the balance of power in the Senate and the House.  If 
>> you
>> were wealthy in the South, in no small part due to slavery, then the idea
>> that the industrial northern states combined with the new states in the
>> west could take your wealth away was worth the expenditure of thousands of
>> lives.  Of course not their own.  I say that, but if you visit the
>> University of Virginia you will see that most of the classes near the 
>> Civil
>> War died in the war: if you could go to the University you were part of 
>> the
>> ruling class.
>> 
>> 
>> On Sun, Dec 9, 2012 at 7:05 PM, Don Dory <don.dory at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> Ken, I just had a good friend tour the Blues sites in Mississippi near
>>> Greenwood.  Most are still there in all their grubby glory.  The Delta 
>>> is a
>>> place of great poverty with pockets of vast wealth.  Good ingredients for
>>> the Blues.  Most of the worst poverty is invisible now.  It doesn't mean
>>> that it isn't there but it is poor politics to have rows of shotgun 
>>> shacks
>>> with no running water and no interior toilet facilities visible from the
>>> road.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Sun, Dec 9, 2012 at 7:00 PM, Don Dory <don.dory at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> I knew that term would draw fire.  Many residents of the Southeastern
>>>> U.S. use that term as from their perspective the Northern States 
>>>> violated
>>>> the long term agreement about slavery.  It is important when moving 
>>>> between
>>>> cultures to understand their perspective on how things happened and more
>>>> important the why.  Whether it fits the facts on the ground the personal
>>>> reality is the sum of the society, it's myths, dreams, and the 
>>>> origination
>>>> stories that culture tells itself.
>>>> 
>>>> As to the American Civil War as most know the conflict of the early to
>>>> mid 1860's it was eighty years in the making more or less and proof that
>>>> even know horrendous human undertakings require just as horrendous a
>>>> response to change.  My opinion is that is why change is so hard, the 
>>>> price
>>>> of change is often as horrendous as the objected to activity.  Consider 
>>>> the
>>>> Second World War, we remember the Holocaust as 6 million Jews, Gypsies, 
>>>> and
>>>> mental defectives being slaughtered but it took the lives of some 20
>>>> million Russians, 12 million Germans, half a million French citizens, 
>>>> half
>>>> a million Americans, almost 600,000 Poles.  I could go on but certainly 
>>>> a
>>>> very high price to resolve European issues starting in 1914.
>>>> 
>>>> As to the question of the pictures, if you browse the images of the 
>>>> Civil
>>>> War there are a few still available of the "hospitals" where the only 
>>>> known
>>>> treatment for 58 caliber bullets smashing bone and flesh was amputation;
>>>> hence the piles of arms and legs.  The United States suffered more 
>>>> deaths
>>>> and injuries during the Civil War than it did in any other conflict: new
>>>> estimates are at 750,000 casualties.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On Sun, Dec 9, 2012 at 6:24 PM, Tina Manley <images at comporium.net> 
>>>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> I love the South and would miss it terribly. There are plenty of us who
>>>>> don't fly Confederate flags, support Obama, vote Democratic, and don't
>>>>> stereotype others.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Tina
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Sunday, December 9, 2012, Bill Pearce <billcpearce at cox.net> 
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> Usually pronounced Wah uv Nawthen Agression, this is the term that
>>>>> residents of the US South (Sore Loosers) use to describe the American
>>>>> Civil
>>>>> War. These can be, but not always are the same people that have large
>>>>> Confederate flag decals on their pickup trucks. It is an inaccurate
>>>>> description. President Lincoln was brilliant and far seeing, and 
>>>>> realized
>>>>> that if this succession was to become fact, there would be no end, and
>>>>> what
>>>>> is the USA would become a hodgepodge of tiny nations led by who knows
>>>>> what.
>>>>> There are many of us, however, who wouldn't miss the south a bit.
>>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: philippe.amard
>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, December 09, 2012 5:10 PM
>>>>>> To: Leica Users Group
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Leica] Desensitization
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> could it be Vietnam?
>>>>>> ph
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Le 9 d?c. 12 ? 23:39, Douglas Barry a ?crit :
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> "Don Dory" <don.dory at gmail.com>  wrote
>>>>>>>> nasty deaths from smallpox and ebola.  Or consider the images from
>>>>>   the
>>>>> War
>>>>>>>> of Northern Aggression where there were stacks of limbs outside the
>>>>> medical
>>>>>>>> tents.
>>>>>>> Don, as an Irishman living in Ireland and unfamiliar with many terms
>>>>>   used in the States, what was the War of Northern Aggression? Do you
>>>>>   mean
>>>>> the Korean War? I never saw those images.
>>>>>>> I presume you don't mean the American Civil War as I thought that
>>>>>   started with the Confederacy attacking Fort Sumter? Well it did
>>>>>   according
>>>>> to all those school history books (European) I read 50  years ago.
>>>>>>> Maybe school books are different in the USA....
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Douglas
>>>>>>> _________
>>>>>>> Douglas Barry
>>>>>>> Bray, Co. Wicklow
>>>>>>> Republic of Ireland
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Leica Users Group.
>>>>>>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Leica Users Group.
>>>>>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Leica Users Group.
>>>>>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>> --
>>>>> Tina Manley, ASMP
>>>>> www.tinamanley.com
>>>>> 
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Leica Users Group.
>>>>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> --
>>>> Don
>>>> don.dory at gmail.com
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> --
>>> Don
>>> don.dory at gmail.com
>>> 
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Leica Users Group.
> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information




Replies: Reply from photo.forrest at earthlink.net (Phil Forrest) ([Leica] Desensitization)
In reply to: Message from von-ohlen at sbcglobal.net (Bill Larsen) ([Leica] Desensitization)