Archived posting to the Leica Users Group, 2012/12/09

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Subject: [Leica] Desensitization
From: photo.forrest at earthlink.net (Phil Forrest)
Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2012 23:48:53 -0500
References: <50C5340B.4080908@sbcglobal.net> <CCEACA7D.27937%mark@rabinergroup.com>

It was never that simple and as others have said, the war was not about
slavery. This was never a clear cut war over a single issue but modern
history would have you think it was.

Phil Forrest



On Sun, 09 Dec 2012 23:08:45 -0500
Mark Rabiner <mark at rabinergroup.com> wrote:

> You'd want to  call it from the southern standpoint the "war of
> northern aggression"  rather than the war of "we were being total
> A-holes and the north had to put an end to it" aggression.
> 
> Mark William Rabiner
> Photography
> http://gallery.leica-users.org/v/lugalrabs/
> 
> 
> > From: Bill Larsen <von-ohlen at sbcglobal.net>
> > Reply-To: Leica Users Group <lug at leica-users.org>
> > Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2012 16:59:55 -0800
> > To: Leica Users Group <lug at leica-users.org>
> > Subject: Re: [Leica] Desensitization
> > 
> > Douglas Barry the answers you are getting here are somewhat
> > simplistic. And I am not quite knowledgeable enough to really
> > furnish any light. The term is "war of northern aggression"  as
> > other have wrote is much more complex.  It really wasn't about
> > slavery other than in a tangential manner.  It was a civil war.
> > And like all civil war very nasty.  I might point out that there
> > was not a totally uniform opinion about  it in any state.  Brothers
> > were pitted against brothers (and I mean in the family rather than
> > the society). States like North Carolina and Virginia had people
> > fighting in both armies.  And apparently it is not a conflict that
> > has healed yet. On 12/9/2012 4:15 PM, Don Dory wrote:
> >> Ric, while slavery was the proximate cause of the war, most of the
> >> response was the truly great debate about the nature of the
> >> union.  Many in the Southern States truly believed in the State
> >> first and the union second. Lee is the perfect example of one who
> >> abhorred slavery but so loved his Virginia that he declined the
> >> honor of leading the Union Armies in the invasion of Virginia.
> >> 
> >> Of course political power and the wealth that flowed from that had
> >> a lot to do with the ultimate war.  With Lincoln as president
> >> there was no doubt that the new states joining the union would be
> >> free states that would ultimately change the balance of power in
> >> the Senate and the House.  If you were wealthy in the South, in no
> >> small part due to slavery, then the idea that the industrial
> >> northern states combined with the new states in the west could
> >> take your wealth away was worth the expenditure of thousands of
> >> lives.  Of course not their own.  I say that, but if you visit the
> >> University of Virginia you will see that most of the classes near
> >> the Civil War died in the war: if you could go to the University
> >> you were part of the ruling class.
> >> 
> >> 
> >> On Sun, Dec 9, 2012 at 7:05 PM, Don Dory <don.dory at gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >> 
> >>> Ken, I just had a good friend tour the Blues sites in Mississippi
> >>> near Greenwood.  Most are still there in all their grubby glory.
> >>> The Delta is a place of great poverty with pockets of vast
> >>> wealth.  Good ingredients for the Blues.  Most of the worst
> >>> poverty is invisible now.  It doesn't mean that it isn't there
> >>> but it is poor politics to have rows of shotgun shacks with no
> >>> running water and no interior toilet facilities visible from the
> >>> road.
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> On Sun, Dec 9, 2012 at 7:00 PM, Don Dory <don.dory at gmail.com>
> >>> wrote:
> >>> 
> >>>> I knew that term would draw fire.  Many residents of the
> >>>> Southeastern U.S. use that term as from their perspective the
> >>>> Northern States violated the long term agreement about slavery.
> >>>> It is important when moving between cultures to understand their
> >>>> perspective on how things happened and more important the why.
> >>>> Whether it fits the facts on the ground the personal reality is
> >>>> the sum of the society, it's myths, dreams, and the origination
> >>>> stories that culture tells itself.
> >>>> 
> >>>> As to the American Civil War as most know the conflict of the
> >>>> early to mid 1860's it was eighty years in the making more or
> >>>> less and proof that even know horrendous human undertakings
> >>>> require just as horrendous a response to change.  My opinion is
> >>>> that is why change is so hard, the price of change is often as
> >>>> horrendous as the objected to activity.  Consider the Second
> >>>> World War, we remember the Holocaust as 6 million Jews, Gypsies,
> >>>> and mental defectives being slaughtered but it took the lives of
> >>>> some 20 million Russians, 12 million Germans, half a million
> >>>> French citizens, half a million Americans, almost 600,000
> >>>> Poles.  I could go on but certainly a very high price to resolve
> >>>> European issues starting in 1914.
> >>>> 
> >>>> As to the question of the pictures, if you browse the images of
> >>>> the Civil War there are a few still available of the "hospitals"
> >>>> where the only known treatment for 58 caliber bullets smashing
> >>>> bone and flesh was amputation; hence the piles of arms and
> >>>> legs.  The United States suffered more deaths and injuries
> >>>> during the Civil War than it did in any other conflict: new
> >>>> estimates are at 750,000 casualties.
> >>>> 
> >>>> 
> >>>> On Sun, Dec 9, 2012 at 6:24 PM, Tina Manley
> >>>> <images at comporium.net> wrote:
> >>>> 
> >>>>> I love the South and would miss it terribly. There are plenty
> >>>>> of us who don't fly Confederate flags, support Obama, vote
> >>>>> Democratic, and don't stereotype others.
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> Tina
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> On Sunday, December 9, 2012, Bill Pearce <billcpearce at cox.net>
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>> Usually pronounced Wah uv Nawthen Agression, this is the term
> >>>>>> that
> >>>>> residents of the US South (Sore Loosers) use to describe the
> >>>>> American Civil
> >>>>> War. These can be, but not always are the same people that have
> >>>>> large Confederate flag decals on their pickup trucks. It is an
> >>>>> inaccurate description. President Lincoln was brilliant and far
> >>>>> seeing, and realized that if this succession was to become
> >>>>> fact, there would be no end, and what
> >>>>> is the USA would become a hodgepodge of tiny nations led by who
> >>>>> knows what.
> >>>>> There are many of us, however, who wouldn't miss the south a
> >>>>> bit.
> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: philippe.amard
> >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, December 09, 2012 5:10 PM
> >>>>>> To: Leica Users Group
> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Leica] Desensitization
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> could it be Vietnam?
> >>>>>> ph
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> Le 9 d?c. 12 ? 23:39, Douglas Barry a ?crit :
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> "Don Dory" <don.dory at gmail.com>  wrote
> >>>>>>>> nasty deaths from smallpox and ebola.  Or consider the
> >>>>>>>> images from
> >>>>>   the
> >>>>> War
> >>>>>>>> of Northern Aggression where there were stacks of limbs
> >>>>>>>> outside the
> >>>>> medical
> >>>>>>>> tents.
> >>>>>>> Don, as an Irishman living in Ireland and unfamiliar with
> >>>>>>> many terms
> >>>>>   used in the States, what was the War of Northern Aggression?
> >>>>> Do you mean
> >>>>> the Korean War? I never saw those images.
> >>>>>>> I presume you don't mean the American Civil War as I thought
> >>>>>>> that
> >>>>>   started with the Confederacy attacking Fort Sumter? Well it
> >>>>> did according
> >>>>> to all those school history books (European) I read 50  years
> >>>>> ago.
> >>>>>>> Maybe school books are different in the USA....
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> Douglas
> >>>>>>> _________
> >>>>>>> Douglas Barry
> >>>>>>> Bray, Co. Wicklow
> >>>>>>> Republic of Ireland
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>>> Leica Users Group.
> >>>>>>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more
> >>>>>>> information
> >>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>> Leica Users Group.
> >>>>>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more
> >>>>>> information
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>> Leica Users Group.
> >>>>>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more
> >>>>>> information
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> Tina Manley, ASMP
> >>>>> www.tinamanley.com
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> Leica Users Group.
> >>>>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more
> >>>>> information
> >>>>> 
> >>>> 
> >>>> 
> >>>> --
> >>>> Don
> >>>> don.dory at gmail.com
> >>>> 
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> --
> >>> Don
> >>> don.dory at gmail.com
> >>> 
> >> 
> >> 
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Leica Users Group.
> > See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Leica Users Group.
> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information



-- 
http://philipforrestphoto.wordpress.com/
http://gallery.leica-users.org/v/philforrest


Replies: Reply from ricc at embarqmail.com (Ric Carter) ([Leica] Desensitization)
In reply to: Message from von-ohlen at sbcglobal.net (Bill Larsen) ([Leica] Desensitization)
Message from mark at rabinergroup.com (Mark Rabiner) ([Leica] Desensitization)