Archived posting to the Leica Users Group, 2009/03/18

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Subject: [Leica] French to legislate image retouching
From: chs2018 at med.cornell.edu (Chris Saganich)
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 15:23:45 -0400
References: <6.2.1.2.2.20090317101204.0298cbd8@pop.med.cornell.edu> <36172e5a0903171628j232e37d7k67103d661bc3f00d@mail.gmail.com> <3e7573d40903180646t311945fcw5d2f5ec2fb95c344@mail.gmail.com>

That's "throw out the TV, go to the country, eat some peaches, and look for 
God"

At 01:31 PM 3/18/2009, you wrote:



>>But what do you do about tv?
>
>"throw out the TV, eat some peaches, and look for God" - John Prine
>
>>Leo Wesson
>>Photographer/Videographer
>>817.733.9157
>>www.leowessson.com
>>
>>
>>On Tue, Mar 17, 2009 at 6:28 PM, Geoff Hopkinson <hopsternew at 
>>gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>> > Hi Chris, anecdotally that causal connection seems commonly 
>> accepted.  I do
>> > realise that you have just provided a link and mentioned the causal
>> > connection. This is not meant to be negative regarding your post. I do
>> > think
>> > it is an issue relevant for everyone with a digital darkroom and worthy 
>> > of
>> > discussion.
>> > This link is a practical example that we have shown our daughter.
>> > http://demo.fb.se/e/girlpower/ad/retouch/index.html
>> > Here this issue has been raised to an extent, with a voluntary code for
>> > women's magazines especially, to follow. Another related issue is 
>> > minimum
>> > age and weight standards for fashion models. Following media attention
>> > stirring popular opinion, some successful European models have been
>> > withdrawn from high profile shows here on age or weight issues. Yet we 
>> have
>> > 13 yr olds launching successful careers from cover photographs on Teen
>> > magazines.
>> > Your linked article doesn't contain any actual facts or detail, as is
>> > common
>> > for this kind of op ed piece. I want to avoid straying into areas such
>> > as the quality of media reporting, perceptions arising from advertising,
>> > personal responsibility and liability.
>> > I do have reservations regarding effectiveness for any legislation to
>> > require disclosure on retouching.
>> >
>> > Here are some points that come to mind for me:
>> > A meaningful disclosure on any fashion image would be complex and 
>> > large. I
>> > don't see that as practical at all. It could easily double the size of a
>> > magazine for example.
>> > A generic warning (similar to a product health warning) may not be
>> > effective
>> > at all. It would realistically have to say that EVERY image in the 
>> magazine
>> > has been altered. The effect of such a warning label might be, more in 
>> > the
>> > nature of "look we are doing SOMETHING" .
>> > Would the magazine just provide links where the information could be
>> > obtained? Would anyone go there except people interested in the field
>> > perhaps?
>> > Since many magazines are international in distribution, this could 
>> > negate
>> > any national legislation anyway, editions unaffected by such legislation
>> > could be more desirable (cheaper? smaller? ).
>> > What about television and movie content? Do we require disclosure when a
>> > "stunt butt" stands in for the leading lady for unclothed scenes?
>> > Should disclosure extend to all printed or displayed images?
>> >  Who sets the standards and for what contexts?
>> > What would be the cost of implementation? Would there be practical
>> > benefits?
>> >
>> > You can see how these ideas can balloon out of all proportion.
>> >
>> > In my opinion, this sort of issue sounds like a great idea at first 
>> > glance
>> > but is grossly impractical to actually implement. Do you have any
>> > professional insights on practical effects or implementations that you 
>> > are
>> > aware of? Can you share any views on what you think is appropriate or 
>> > how
>> > that causal link could be approached?
>> >
>> > I sometimes take photos of my children (a lot!) and their friends if it 
>> > is
>> > a
>> > party or similar.
>> > I've posted probably a 1000 or more images to the list (not only those
>> > subjects of course). All of those images have certainly had at least 
>> > some
>> > modification with photoshop.
>> > Here's a more dramatic example, just for purposes of discussion that 
>> may be
>> > of interest. This is a young teen friend of my daughters. There were 
>> > also
>> > gross problems with colour from the original processing (colour neg) and
>> > prints from them.
>> > The result pleased me,the subject and her family  and I don't see any
>> > negative impact at all. Put in another context you could argue that it 
>> > is
>> > unrealistic, promotes unhealthy expectations, negative body image etc. I
>> > see
>> > it as making an attractive and positive photograph.
>> >
>> > http://gallery.leica-users.org/v/gh/a/ns/DLoriginal.jpg.html
>> > http://gallery.leica-users.org/v/gh/a/ns/DL.jpg.html
>> > A retouching disclsure would be extensive and detract from the appeal of
>> > the
>> > photo too. Yet it included a bw conversion with contrast, individual 
>> colour
>> > conversion adjustments, obviously removal of skin imperfections, lines,
>> > texture and luminace, eyes altered in shade, detail, sharpness, tone 
>> > even
>> > highlight adjustments, localised focus adjustments throughout etc etc.
>> > I think that the viewer can look and is well aware that the photo has 
>> > been
>> > idealised. Similarly, surely people in general are aware that all 
>> > printed
>> > photgraphs are subject to entensive modification before publication. 
>> > There
>> > are millions published every year.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > 2009/3/18 Chris Saganich <chs2018 at med.cornell.edu>
>> >
>> > > Another reason I like the French.  As a Public Health Professional I 
>> > > do
>> > see
>> > > a thread through image retouching, negative body image, and
>> > > psychological/physical harm through the entire population.
>> > >
>> > > <
>> > >
>> > 
>> http://video.nytimes.com/video/playlist/opinion/op-ed/1194833176718/index.html#1194838469575
>> > > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > _______________________________________________
>> > > Leica Users Group.
>> > > See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information
>> > >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Cheers
>> > Geoff
>> > 'Pick up your Leica and make the best photo you can'
>> > http://gallery.leica-users.org/v/gh/a/
>> > http://www.pbase.com/hoppyman
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Leica Users Group.
>> > See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information
>> >
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>Leica Users Group.
>>See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information
>
>Chris Saganich MS, CPH
>Senior Physicist, Office of Health Physics
>Weill Medical College of Cornell University
>New York Presbyterian Hospital
>chs2018 at med.cornell.edu
>http://intranet.med.cornell.edu/research/health_phys/
>Ph. 212.746.6964
>Fax. 212.746.4800
>Office A-0049
>
>_______________________________________________
>Leica Users Group.
>See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information

Chris Saganich MS, CPH
Senior Physicist, Office of Health Physics
Weill Medical College of Cornell University
New York Presbyterian Hospital
chs2018 at med.cornell.edu
http://intranet.med.cornell.edu/research/health_phys/
Ph. 212.746.6964
Fax. 212.746.4800
Office A-0049


Replies: Reply from grdalton at hotmail.com (Gary Dalton) ([Leica] French to legislate image retouching)
In reply to: Message from chs2018 at med.cornell.edu (Chris Saganich) ([Leica] French to legislate image retouching)
Message from hopsternew at gmail.com (Geoff Hopkinson) ([Leica] French to legislate image retouching)
Message from leowesson at gmail.com (leo wesson) ([Leica] French to legislate image retouching)