Archived posting to the Leica Users Group, 2008/10/28

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Subject: [Leica] euro vs dollar and leica
From: Frank.Dernie at btinternet.com (Frank Dernie)
Date: Tue Oct 28 06:29:34 2008
References: <E9EB4E4F-9331-4572-9ED0-C35713E22544@btinternet.com> <27C7054A6C5943B08F4EC063A70F273A@DGX96341> <p06230902c52bd9517fef@10.1.16.176> <80cda11e498b8113f236f37bc9b2ffef@cox.net> <a3f189160810271700x4ad90da5w58c3be4d80373b8c@mail.gmail.com> <p06230903c52c50a8ac81@[10.1.16.176]>

Hi Henning,
I just like the way the e-CVT transmission works, the cleverest thing  
on a production car IMO. There was no economical sense for me owning  
the Prius, and it is a poor long distance car - at steady speed there  
is no benefit from the regeneration technology and then you simply  
have a car with a 1,5l Atkinson cycle engine designed for high load  
efficiency rather than power. Pretty boring for long trips....
Frank

On 28 Oct, 2008, at 05:37, Henning Wulff wrote:

> I've read many of the comparisons, and not only from hybrid oriented  
> sites.
>
> As I mentioned, the fuel economy achieved depends a lot on where and  
> how you drive. Whether or not you get a payback depends on how many  
> miles you drive per year, and how close the Prius comes to being the  
> type of car you want/need/enjoy. I'm very familiar with the Prius,  
> as I get to drive one at various times every year. I mention the  
> Prius as it's the only one that is truly in the running, as the  
> other hybrids are definitely not economically sound buys unless you  
> _really_ drive a lot of miles.
>
> I'm also quite familiar with the use of Priuses as taxis here in  
> Vancouver, where there are quite a few including the one mentioned  
> in the article below.
>
> The upcharge of $4500 may apply, depending on what type of car you  
> compare it to. It's rather lower than my calculations, but even at  
> that a good diesel car would still be a lot better buy under almost  
> all circumstances. The $4500 is more than most owners will get paid  
> back over the term of their ownership, based on average mileage per  
> year, fuel costs and average length of ownership.
>
> The total life cycle carbon footprint is not in favour of the  
> hybrid, either compared a good diesel. On the other hand, the Prius  
> is a far better choice both on a practical level and certainly on an  
> ecological and 'feel good' level than the choice that most people in  
> North America make. It's a big step in the right direction.
>
>
>
>> According to a Toyota service rep. about $4,500.  However:
>> Toyota Prius Frequently Asked Questions Click on a question to jump  
>> to the
>> answer
>>
>>
>>
>>> What is a hybrid 
>>> vehicle?<http://www.cleangreencar.co.nz/page/faq-prius#Q1 
>>> >
>>> Do I need to plug the Prius 
>>> in?<http://www.cleangreencar.co.nz/page/faq-prius#Q2 
>>> >
>>> What Petrol do I use in the 
>>> Prius?<http://www.cleangreencar.co.nz/page/faq-prius#Q3 
>>> >
>>> What fuel economy can I expect from the 
>>> Prius?<http://www.cleangreencar.co.nz/page/faq-prius#Q4 
>>> >
>>> How does the Prius perform and handle compared to conventional  
>>> vehicles?<http://www.cleangreencar.co.nz/page/faq-prius#Q5>
>>> Is the Prius available in a manual 
>>> transmission?<http://www.cleangreencar.co.nz/page/faq-prius#Q6 
>>> >
>>> Can the Prius run on electricity when it runs out of 
>>> petrol?<http://www.cleangreencar.co.nz/page/faq-prius#Q7 
>>> >
>>> How does the Prius compare to conventional cars with respect to  
>>> safety
>> features? <http://www.cleangreencar.co.nz/page/faq-prius#Q8>
>>> Who can service my Prius and how often does it need to be 
>>> done?<http://www.cleangreencar.co.nz/page/faq-prius#Q9 
>>> >
>>> Who can do repair work if something were to go wrong with my Prius? 
>>> <http://www.cleangreencar.co.nz/page/faq-prius#Q10>
>>> How long will the Prius 
>>> last?<http://www.cleangreencar.co.nz/page/faq-prius#Q11 
>>> >
>>> How long does the battery last in the Prius, and how much will it  
>>> cost to
>> replace? <http://www.cleangreencar.co.nz/page/faq-prius#Q12>
>>> Can I tow with the 
>>> Prius?<http://www.cleangreencar.co.nz/page/faq-prius#Q13 
>>> >
>>> Do the back seats fold down in the 
>>> Prius?<http://www.cleangreencar.co.nz/page/faq-prius#Q14 
>>> >
>>> Can the Prius be 
>>> jump-started?<http://www.cleangreencar.co.nz/page/faq-prius#Q15 
>>> >
>>> How can I be sure the mileage is genuine on the cars you are  
>>> selling?<http://www.cleangreencar.co.nz/page/faq-prius#Q16>
>>> Does the price on your cars include a warranty and on-road 
>>> costs?<http://www.cleangreencar.co.nz/page/faq-prius#Q17 
>>> >
>>
>>> Can I trade in my non-hybrid car on a hybrid car at *The Clean  
>>> Green Car
>> Company*? <http://www.cleangreencar.co.nz/page/faq-prius#Q24>
>>
>>> Are English language owner's manuals available for the 
>>> Prius?<http://www.cleangreencar.co.nz/page/faq-prius#Q23 
>>> >
>>> What are LEVs, ULEVs, SULEVs and 
>>> AT-PZEVs?<http://www.cleangreencar.co.nz/page/faq-prius#Q18 
>>> >
>>> What is the emissions rating of 
>>> Prius?<http://www.cleangreencar.co.nz/page/faq-prius#Q19 
>>> >
>>> I don't live in Auckland; can I buy a car from you and if so what  
>>> is the
>> process? <http://www.cleangreencar.co.nz/page/faq-prius#Q20>
>>> What's the difference between Toyota's and Honda's Hybrid 
>>> Systems?<http://www.cleangreencar.co.nz/page/faq-prius#Q21 
>>> >
>>> What is the downside of owning a Hybrid 
>>> car?<http://www.cleangreencar.co.nz/page/faq-prius#Q22 
>>> >
>>
>>
>> What is a hybrid vehicle?
>>
>> A hybrid car combines a petrol-powered engine with an electric  
>> motor to
>> provide improved fuel economy and help lower emissions. [back to
>> top<http://www.cleangreencar.co.nz/page/faq-prius#top>
>> ]
>>
>>
>> Do I need to plug the Prius in?
>>
>> Never. The Prius automatically recharges its batteries using  
>> regenerative
>> braking, or by running the on-board generator. The driver never  
>> needs to
>> worry about recharging the battery. [back to
>> top<http://www.cleangreencar.co.nz/page/faq-prius#top>
>> ]
>>
>>
>> What Petrol do I use in the Prius?
>>
>> The Prius runs better on the cheaper 91 octane unleaded. [back to
>> top<http://www.cleangreencar.co.nz/page/faq-prius#top>
>> ]
>>
>>
>> What fuel economy can I expect from the Prius?
>>
>> You can expect to easily achieve 5ltr/100km (20km/ltr or 56miles/ 
>> gallon)
>> although most of our customers seem to achieve even better results  
>> than this
>> with some achieving as low as 4.4ltr/100km (22.7km/ltr or 64miles/ 
>> gallon)
>> over a great distance.
>>
>>
>> Typically you can expect between 4.7 and 5.2 litre per 100km  
>> depending on
>> how you drive. [back to 
>> top<http://www.cleangreencar.co.nz/page/faq-prius#top 
>> >
>> ]
>>
>>
>> How does the Prius perform and handle compared to conventional  
>> vehicles?
>>
>> The Toyota Prius feels and drives like a normal automatic car with  
>> the
>> exception that when idling and driving at low speeds, the petrol  
>> engine cuts
>> out, in favour of the electric motor. It is also quieter and smoother
>> overall than you average car. Although the Toyota Prius Hybrid only  
>> has a
>> 1500cc petrol engine when combined with the power of the electric  
>> motor it
>> feels more like a 2.4 litre car to drive. Basically the Toyota Prius
>> performs just the same as an equivalent sized non-hybrid car - it  
>> achieves
>> its fantastic fuel economy with no compromise in performance. [back  
>> to
>> top<http://www.cleangreencar.co.nz/page/faq-prius#top>
>> ]
>>
>>
>> Is Prius available in a manual transmission?
>>
>> No. The Prius doesn't use any kind of transmission found in a  
>> conventional
>> non-hybrid car. In fact there is no step gear transmission in the  
>> Prius - it
>> only has one gear ratio. Instead, in the Prius, all the torque is  
>> provided
>> by the electric motors. However for the end user it is just the  
>> same as any
>> other automatic car to drive.  [back to
>> top<http://www.cleangreencar.co.nz/page/faq-prius#top>
>> ]
>>
>>
>> Can Prius run on electricity when it runs out of petrol?
>>
>> No. Although the Prius can operate in electric-only mode when  
>> petrol is in
>> the tank, it is not designed to run without petrol. Doing so could  
>> cause
>> damage to the hybrid system, so, like any other car, drivers should  
>> be sure
>> to keep petrol in the tank of their Prius at all times. [back to
>> top<http://www.cleangreencar.co.nz/page/faq-prius#top>
>> ]
>>
>>
>> How does Prius compare to conventional cars with respect to safety  
>> features?
>>
>> The Prius is equipped with many advanced safety features. The Prius  
>> helps
>> avoid accidents altogether with a standard Anti-lock Brake System  
>> (ABS). In
>> an accident, its strong mono-form shape, front & rear crumple  
>> zones, side
>> intrusion bars and driver & front passenger multi-stage airbags  
>> help shield
>> its occupants from harm. The battery pack is sealed and has built-in
>> security measures that completely isolate it from the rest of the  
>> car to
>> prevent any chance of shock in the case of an accident. The Toyota  
>> Prius
>> Generation II (2000 - 2003) has an NCAP (New Car Assessment  
>> Program) rating
>> of 4 stars. This is the highest rating given to a car of its design  
>> year.
>> The Toyota Prius Generation III (2003 onwards) has an NCAP rating  
>> of 5
>> stars, the highest rating available.  [back to
>> top<http://www.cleangreencar.co.nz/page/faq-prius#top>
>> ]
>>
>>
>> Who can service my Prius and how often does it need to be done?
>>
>> Any reputable mechanical workshop can do the standard servicing  
>> because the
>> Prius' service requirements are the same as any non-hybrid car  
>> meaning
>> it only needs an oil and filter change every 15,000km or one year,  
>> which
>> ever comes first. The battery pack doesn't require any service, in  
>> the same
>> way that you don't service the battery in your cell phone and the  
>> electric
>> motor doesn't require any service, in the same way you don't  
>> service the
>> electric motor in your washing machine. [back to
>> top<http://www.cleangreencar.co.nz/page/faq-prius#top>
>> ]
>>
>>
>> Who can do repair work if something were to go wrong with my Prius?
>>
>> In the unlikely event of any problems with your Toyota Prius *The  
>> Clean
>> Green Car Company* can put you in touch with any one of the 120  
>> independent
>> workshops nation wide or a Toyota franchise service centre that  
>> have Prius
>> diagnostic equipment.
>>
>> [back to top <http://www.cleangreencar.co.nz/page/faq-prius#top>]
>>
>>
>> How long will the Prius last?
>>
>> The Toyota Prius is designed to be as durable as any other Toyota,  
>> which
>> considering Toyota's reputation, is a pretty long time. [back to
>> top<http://www.cleangreencar.co.nz/page/faq-prius#top>
>> ]
>>
>>
>> How long does the battery last in the Prius, and how much will it  
>> cost to
>> replace?
>>
>> The Prius battery is designed to last the lifetime of the vehicle and
>> considering that the Prius is designed to be as durable as any  
>> other Toyota,
>> and considering Toyota's reputation, that is a pretty long time.  
>> Toyota have
>> lab data showing the Prius battery can do 290,000km of normal  
>> driving with
>> absolutely no degradation of the battery's performance. To give  
>> some real
>> life examples, there is a Taxi driver from British Columbia, Jatinder
>> Parhar, who has done over 410,000km in his Prius Taxi and has had  
>> to do
>> nothing to his Prius other than standard servicing. (*click to read  
>> more
>> here*) <http://www.hybridexperience.ca/ 
>> Toyota_Prius.htm#hybridtaxi>. Toyota
>> has sold over 500,000 Generation II and III Prius worldwide and say  
>> they
>> have never had to supply a battery pack for replacement due to wear  
>> and
>> tear. (*click here to read Toyota Press
>> release*).<http://pressroom.toyota.com/Releases/View?id=TYT2004062345528 
>> >Given
>> all this, the price of a replacement battery is probably irrelevant,
>> however in the extremely unlikely event you needed to replace the  
>> battery in
>> your Prius, current cost, at time of writing (Feb 2008), is NZ 
>> $4500.00 for a
>> Generation II Prius and NZ$3150 for a Generation III Prius. However  
>> this is
>> coming down all the time. When we first looked into this at 3 years  
>> ago the
>> battery packs were priced at $7000 each. We believe the price will  
>> fall to
>> around $2000 within a year or so given the increased production of  
>> Hybrid
>> Vehicles using this type of battery. For piece of mind every Toyota  
>> Prius
>> brought from The Clean Green Car Company is covered by a 2 year,  
>> unlimited
>> km Hybrid Car Warranty that includes cover for the battery pack.  
>> [back to
>> top <http://www.cleangreencar.co.nz/page/faq-prius#top>]
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 6:54 PM, Stasys Petravicius  
>> <stasys1@cox.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Henning- Common sense is a rare commodity these days. We drove  
>>> Mercedes
>>> diesels from 1971 to about 1990. Averaged about 27 mpg no matter  
>>> how you
>>> drove them. In 1971 diesel was $0.27 per gallon- so it was $0.01  
>>> per mile
>>> for fuel. Now it's a big multiple of that. My most efficient car  
>>> gets about
>>> 18 in town and 25 on the road. No progress in my stable of cars.  
>>> What is the
>>> cost to change the battery pack in a Toyota Prius? Stasys
>>>
>>> On Oct 27, 2008, at 1:56 PM, Henning Wulff wrote:
>>>
>>>  At 4:21 PM -0400 10/27/08, Charles Hehl wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I just purchased a new GMC diesel truck and it requires ultra  
>>>>> low sulfur
>>>>> diesel fuel as it is designed to meet the 2010 EPA standards for  
>>>>> pollutants.
>>>>> I also understand that most states now only sell the ultra low  
>>>>> sulfur diesel
>>>>> fuel and that it takes a bit more refining to make...hence the  
>>>>> higher price.
>>>>>
>>>>> Charlie Hehl
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> That's the fuel that's been available in Europe for 10 years or  
>>>> more, and
>>>> why we in North America are only now getting the better diesel  
>>>> engined
>>>> European cars.
>>>>
>>>> About 2000 I asked a VW dealer here why we didn't get the more  
>>>> interesting
>>>> diesel cars, and he said that:
>>>>
>>>> 1. No one wanted diesels and he wouldn't be able to sell them
>>>>
>>>> 2. They (the oil companies) couldn't make that kind of fuel here  
>>>> and
>>>>
>>>> 3. The hybrids have a lot better fuel consumption numbers
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> All of these are only partially true, because
>>>>
>>>> 1. No salesmen could sell them because they didn't have any to sell
>>>>
>>>> 2. The oil companies had other priorities
>>>>
>>>> 3. Hybrids and diesel powered cars excel at different types of  
>>>> driving,
>>>> but hybrids tend to be more expensive up front, and rarely repay  
>>>> the
>>>> increased capital cost.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> So bring on the better diesel cars!
>>>>
>>>> VW still doesn't get it; they will now offer one car, the Jetta,  
>>>> with a
>>>> diesel engine that gives the worst consumption/performance  
>>>> combination of
>>>> those they offer in Europe. Go figure.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>   *            Henning J. Wulff
>>>>  /|\      Wulff Photography & Design
>>>>  /###\   mailto:henningw@archiphoto.com
>>>>  |[ ]|     http://www.archiphoto.com
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Leica Users Group.
>>>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more  
>>>> information
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Leica Users Group.
>>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Regards,
>>
>> Sonny
>> http://www.sonc.com
>> Natchitoches, Louisiana
>> USA
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Leica Users Group.
>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information
>
> -- 
>   *            Henning J. Wulff
>  /|\      Wulff Photography & Design
> /###\   mailto:henningw@archiphoto.com
> |[ ]|     http://www.archiphoto.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> Leica Users Group.
> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information


Replies: Reply from henningw at archiphoto.com (Henning Wulff) ([Leica] euro vs dollar and leica)
In reply to: Message from Frank.Dernie at btinternet.com (Frank Dernie) ([Leica] euro vs dollar and leica)
Message from chehl at comcast.net (Charles Hehl) ([Leica] euro vs dollar and leica)
Message from stasys1 at cox.net (Stasys Petravicius) ([Leica] euro vs dollar and leica)
Message from sonc.hegr at gmail.com (Sonny Carter) ([Leica] euro vs dollar and leica)
Message from henningw at archiphoto.com (Henning Wulff) ([Leica] euro vs dollar and leica)