Archived posting to the Leica Users Group, 2012/12/11

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Subject: [Leica] No more Zeiss Ikon
From: jshulman at judgecrater.com (Jim Shulman)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 17:01:28 -0500
References: <50c773d6.4d11e00a.5334.123c@mx.google.com> <CAF8hL-HFHhuG=nmst8ePwEXt-7jO8TmEcREJhyiXHG_NcHd1yA@mail.gmail.com> <031501cdd7de$7413f930$5c3beb90$@verizon.net> <CAE3QcF4d+PhDBKFU8M7w6=Z27RUHih9HJA9CVs+4D0SLC712eA@mail.gmail.com> <5a9f7449088c1b6edc31985dfcc588c1@mail.gmail.com> <CAE3QcF4EcM8qYzF3cDdK5Wr+LWvqMz0L7-bGmJwCdrWG-X7hmw@mail.gmail.com>

Which is the point: with small-scale, high-tech manufacturing, it doesn't
take much to make a profit.  For instance, from what I understand Mr. K at
Cosmia breaks even with one production run of any of his lenses.  It's
even been done (an M digital camera outside of Solms) with a Cosima body
via Epson, with their 2x sensor of a decade or more ago.

The technology to make a ff M sensor is now several years old and, from
recent indications, no longer just proprietary to Kodak.  In computer chip
technology it's practically a methusulah.  There's little cutting edge
about it.

Today's markets are now defined by tiny slices of tiny slices,
particularly for a niche product like a camera. Even in Leica's film
heyday I doubt their market share was more than 1%, if that--competing
against legions of box Brownies and similar low-end products.

Jim


-----Original Message-----
From: lug-bounces+jshulman=judgecrater.com at leica-users.org
[mailto:lug-bounces+jshulman=judgecrater.com at leica-users.org] On Behalf Of
Geoff Hopkinson
Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2012 4:24 PM
To: Leica Users Group
Subject: Re: [Leica] No more Zeiss Ikon

Jim the Zeiss Ikon of course is a Cosina product. The M9 sensor (and now
Max for the M) are unique due to the particular requirements to make M
lenses work correctly on a 24x36 sensor.

I think it just does not make economic sense for any other manufacturer to
compete directly in that tiny niche.
I think that Dr Kaufmann recently quoted that Leica Camera has doubled
heir market share.... all the way to 0.2% now!

Cheers,
Geoff
http://www.pbase.com/hoppyman



On 12 December 2012 06:55, Jim Shulman <jshulman at judgecrater.com> wrote:

> That's the point, exactly: it's almost 2013.  FF M digital technology
> is now several years old (otherwise known as several lifetimes in
> computer chip development).  Why ZI can't use 2009 sensor and
> processing technology to make a camera at a drastically lower price
> point than the folks in Solms is beyond me.
>
> Best,
> Jim
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: lug-bounces+jshulman=judgecrater.com at leica-users.org
> [mailto:lug-bounces+jshulman=judgecrater.com at leica-users.org] On
> Behalf Of Geoff Hopkinson
> Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2012 3:50 PM
> To: Leica Users Group
> Subject: Re: [Leica] No more Zeiss Ikon
>
> Frank I think that Jim was wishing for a new digital M at a lower
> price point.
> Recheck your quoted dates on that M8 though ;-)
>
> Cheers,
> Geoff
> http://www.pbase.com/hoppyman
>
>
>
> On 12 December 2012 06:31, Frank Filippone <red735i at verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > A realistic expectation....
> >
> > M8, Introduced in Sept 2008 at $4800.  In Sept 2012 is worth less
> > than $2K ( worse than 50% in 4 years)
> > M9 Introduced in  Sept 2009 at $7000.  In Sept 2012 is worth $4K.  (
> > a bit better than 50% in 3 years) M-E Introduced in Sept 2012 at
$5400.
> >
> > Using the algorithm suggested above......
> >
> > Worth about 50% in 2 years???????
> >
> > I don't think the move financially from Film to Digital was so hard
> > for
> me.
> > I saved on film costs.  Broke even quickly.
> >
> > But the second digital camera is a harder rationalization.... I am
> > already saving the money.
> >
> > Why would I buy another?  ( assuming my present digiM is still
> > working to
> > spec)
> >
> > (actually I bought a new M8 then a used M9, for the bigger
> > sensor.....so I have passed that rationalization already)
> >
> >
> > Frank Filippone
> > Red735i at verizon.net
> >
> >
> > In 2 years,a used M-E could be about $3K!
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Dec 11, 2012 at 9:56 AM, jshulman at judgecrater.com <
> > jshulman at judgecrater.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Now the real question--when does it become the full frame 18mp
> > > digital m camera for $3k?
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Leica Users Group.
> > See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> Leica Users Group.
> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information
>
> _______________________________________________
> Leica Users Group.
> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information
>

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Replies: Reply from hopsternew at gmail.com (Geoff Hopkinson) ([Leica] No more Zeiss Ikon)
Reply from grduprey at mchsi.com (grduprey at mchsi.com) ([Leica] No more Zeiss Ikon)
In reply to: Message from jshulman at judgecrater.com (jshulman@judgecrater.com) ([Leica] No more Zeiss Ikon)
Message from richard at richardmanphoto.com (Richard Man) ([Leica] No more Zeiss Ikon)
Message from red735i at verizon.net (Frank Filippone) ([Leica] No more Zeiss Ikon)
Message from hopsternew at gmail.com (Geoff Hopkinson) ([Leica] No more Zeiss Ikon)
Message from jshulman at judgecrater.com (Jim Shulman) ([Leica] No more Zeiss Ikon)
Message from hopsternew at gmail.com (Geoff Hopkinson) ([Leica] No more Zeiss Ikon)