Archived posting to the Leica Users Group, 2013/05/26

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Subject: [Leica] PESO: RG Lewis and Leica M frustrations
From: sonc.hegr at gmail.com (Sonny Carter)
Date: Sun, 26 May 2013 08:39:02 -0500
References: <B1646FE9-57DD-4F48-8956-4AD0759E5C2C@comcast.net> <CDC721EB.A1E4%mark@rabinergroup.com> <80F9701439F20347874CE5E4E03C22E9C553FFCE@WhizzMAIL01.whizz.org>

For me, the larger sensor is not about making a giant print, more about
choices in cropping.


On Sun, May 26, 2013 at 1:29 AM, John McMaster <john at mcmaster.co.nz> 
wrote:

> I would expect as good a print off a decent m4/3 or APS-C as I would 35mm
> film (unless you want grain), digital FF is beyond most medium format film
> IMO.
>
> john
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: lug-bounces+john=mcmaster.co.nz at leica-users.org [mailto:lug-
> > bounces+john=mcmaster.co.nz at leica-users.org] On Behalf Of Mark Rabiner
> > Sent: Sunday, 26 May 2013 6:20 p.m.
> > To: Leica Users Group
> > Subject: Re: [Leica] PESO: RG Lewis and Leica M frustrations
> >
> > If that were true there would have been a huge market for half frame film
> > cameras before digital hit. There was none because the quality difference
> > between half frame and full frame.  And the slightly smaller camera body
> > form you'd get with half frame was really not worth it. Full frame
> cameras fit
> > in your pocket.
> > Most of the pre digital compact cameras were made with a 35mm cassette
> > and
> > 24x36 format so the end result was really in the more important ways not
> all
> > the different from a  hulking SLR weighing 2 or 3 pounds.
> > When you needed that big print you could get it with the camera you
> pulled
> > out of your pocket.
> >
> > The problem is in this digital age people think this carries over.
> > They're going to just shoot with a compact camera and its just going to
> be
> > just fine like when they shot with their olupus XA or Rollei 35 or
> Contax or
> > Nikon.
> > But oops the sensor is a fraction of the size!
> > "Well who cameras I just want it to be cheap and fit in my pocket and
> I'll buy
> > a better one in two year's."
> >
> > Few people who shot 35mm film ever make 11x14's or 16x20s ever.
> > But when they did need perhaps unexpended to make print of some real
> > size they mare able to do it.
> > Shoot with a compact with a much smaller size that 24x36 and that's not
> going
> > to be an option.  That large print which you out of the blue need to
> make will
> > embarrass you.
> > The fact is when your out shooting with a compact digital consumer
> compact
> > you're just not getting the shot. Sure its on your little web page or
> gallery but
> > realistically  its just a shell game. You're really just pretending. Its
> a jpeg.
> > I say if you're going to drag yourself out somewhere and stand there and
> do
> > a photograph why not really do it? And not with a stupid toy camera?
> >
> >
> > On 5/25/13 3:05 PM, "Richard S. Taylor" <r.s.taylor at comcast.net> 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Steve - I agree with this completely.  Sensor size is only relevant to
> > > the size of print you want to make, the noise you can live with, and
> > > the dynamic range you need.  For much, maybe most of what I do,
> > > micro-4/3rds is just fine even though I'm shooting mostly with a X
> Pro-1
> > these days.
> > >
> > > I still think Leica missed the boat by not bringing out a very high
> > > quality micro-4/3rds camera system.  It would have been following in
> > > the great tradition of the company.
> > >
> > > There may be some movement in the press towards trying smaller sensor
> > sizes.
> > > This year at the Boston Symphony concerts, the photographer covering
> > > them for the Boston Globe has switched from a big DSLR in a even
> > > larger wooden blimp to what looks to me to be a Panasonic GX-1 with a
> > > long zoom and no blimp.  It will be interesting to see if he returns
> with it
> > next year.
> > >
> > > Dick
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On May 25, 2013, at 2:48 PM, Steve Barbour wrote:
> > >
> > >>
> > >> On May 25, 2013, at 10:01 AM, Richard Taylor <r.s.taylor at 
> > >> comcast.net>
> > wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> Well, as others have said, it's hard to imagine Leica competing with
> > >>> themselves so FF is not a starter, I think.  Fuji and others have
> > >>> shown what can be done with APS-C so if the build and image quality
> > >>> with M lenses were high, I might go for that price.
> > >>
> > >> Remember Dick that there is nothing sacred about going to "full
> > >> frame" except (other things being equal) that bigger is better (sorta
> > >> like film). So why stop at full frame  ? When you get to full frame,
> > >> you will still want a bigger sensor, and as the Sony RX1 has shown
> > >> you can put a full frame sensor in a small camera body. And so it
> > >> goes endlessly, unless at some point you say, I like my images just
> the
> > way they are.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Steve
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> Dick
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> On May 25, 2013, at 12:23 PM, grduprey at mchsi.com wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>>> $3.5 K would not be acceptable for a APS-C camera, a FF camera
> > >>>> would be another thing all together.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Gene
> > >>>>
> > >>>> ----- Original Message -----
> > >>>> From: "Richard Taylor" <r.s.taylor at comcast.net>
> > >>>> To: "Leica Users Group" <lug at leica-users.org>
> > >>>> Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2013 11:00:36 AM GMT -06:00 US/Canada
> > >>>> Central
> > >>>> Subject: Re: [Leica] PESO: RG Lewis and Leica M frustrations
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I think Steve has it right.  Unless the Mini proves to be a useable
> > >>>> camera at an acceptable price, Leica will have truly and finally
> > >>>> abandoned those of us looking for a practical tool in favor of the
> gifters
> > and collectors.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Useable to my mind means that the camera has at least an APS-C
> > >>>> sensor, a built-in EVF of a quality like that in the XE-1, and
> > >>>> microlenses on the sensor to let us use M lenses with excellent
> > >>>> image quality with or without an adapter.  The anticipated price of
> > >>>> about $3.5K would be in the acceptable range for me if the camera
> met
> > the other criteria.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Dick
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> On May 25, 2013, at 11:05 AM, Steve Barbour wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> On May 25, 2013, at 7:21 AM, Geoff Hopkinson
> > <hopsternew at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> I don't know if this translates well. In Australia we call this
> the "
> > >>>>>> tall
> > >>>>>> poppy syndrome". Some people enjoy taking swipes at anyone
> > successful.
> > >>>>>> Good
> > >>>>>> on them. Of course it is in our interest too that Leica Camera
> does
> > well.
> > >>>>>> They make products that some of us value a lot for the
> > >>>>>> photographs that we can make with them and for the experience of
> > >>>>>> using those products to achieve that, They can sell as much as
> > >>>>>> they want to anyone that may value their products for whatever
> > >>>>>> reason they wish. Why would you care if you value Leica for the
> > >>>>>> photographs you can make?
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> If at this time virtually all of the product is going to people
> > >>>>> who don't make photographs, you can bet that I/we should care
> > >>>>> about it. Of course it is impacting our ability to make photos
> > >>>>> right now. But I don't think that you have answered my question.
> > >>>>> The short run is already surely impacted as I have just noted. I
> > >>>>> was asking about the longer run. What does this model predict in
> > terms of future optical quality?
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> I am now using a wonderful 1950's Leica Summicron 50/2 on a
> > >>>>> Fujifilm XE-1 body, with a better experience and with better
> > >>>>> results than with the latest Leica glass on my M9. Leica quality
> > >>>>> clearly is already compromised, and their plan to sell expensive
> > >>>>> gear to non users means that they are not currently giving
> > >>>>> priority to the practical needs of professionals and discriminating
> > users.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Steve
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> *Breathe in, breathe out, move on* -- Jimmy Buffett
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Cheers
> > >>>>>> Geoff
> > >>>>>> http://www.pbase.com/hoppyman
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> On 26 May 2013 00:04, Steve Barbour <steve.barbour at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> On May 25, 2013, at 6:55 AM, Jayanand Govindaraj
> > >>>>>>> <jayanand at gmail.com>
> > >>>>>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> Nathan,
> > >>>>>>>> It has taken you a very long time to realize and accept this. I
> > >>>>>>>> was sure
> > >>>>>>> of
> > >>>>>>>> the strategic shift in marketing with the M8 itself - it was so
> > >>>>>>>> obvious
> > >>>>>>>> -
> > >>>>>>>> the marketing, the choice of magazines for advertisements, the
> > >>>>>>> positioning,
> > >>>>>>>> the advertorials, etc. With Blackstone's entrance, it was
> > >>>>>>>> doubly obvious, especially when the ostensible reason for the
> > >>>>>>>> investment was to spread
> > >>>>>>> the
> > >>>>>>>> Leica Boutiques, not develop new products. IMHO, it is great
> > >>>>>>>> for them, because as in all MOJO businesses, the margins are
> > >>>>>>>> obscene, and as Joseph points out, there are enough people in
> > >>>>>>>> the emerging world to pay for the bulk of the production (not
> > >>>>>>>> only the M series but the S series as well).
> > >>>>>>> It
> > >>>>>>>> is not dissimilar to what the Bordeaux market has gone through
> > >>>>>>>> in the
> > >>>>>>> last
> > >>>>>>>> few years, and what the Burgundy market is going through now -
> > >>>>>>>> though I believe that over 50% of the bottles sold in China are
> > >>>>>>>> fakes, because as
> > >>>>>>> in
> > >>>>>>>> all such markets, the labels matter (Mojo), not the intrinsic
> > quality.
> > >>>>>>>> It
> > >>>>>>>> will be interesting to see what will happen to Leica as growth
> > >>>>>>>> in China keeps slowing down, as is bound to happen. Remember,
> > >>>>>>>> this will shaft the Russian  market as well, because energy
> > >>>>>>>> prices would nosedive. As far as
> > >>>>>>> I
> > >>>>>>>> can see, they have alienated most of their traditional
> > >>>>>>>> clientele, bar a few, and I wonder where they would go to make
> > >>>>>>>> up the volumes. They just
> > >>>>>>> do
> > >>>>>>>> not have a diversified enough customer base to withstand a big
> > >>>>>>>> topline
> > >>>>>>> hit.
> > >>>>>>>> It is going to be interesting. The best thing for all of us
> > >>>>>>>> would be if
> > >>>>>>> all
> > >>>>>>>> those unused Leicas in China come on the used market at the
> > >>>>>>>> same time, as herd behaviour takes hold, and cause a glut
> > >>>>>>>> there.
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> I would look to a Leica IPO for Blackstone and Kaufmann to cash
> > >>>>>>>> out
> > >>>>>>> sooner
> > >>>>>>>> rather than later, if growth in China keeps drifting down.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Jayanand,
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> jewelry for rich clients who don't use it, or who use it with
> > >>>>>>> minimal knowledge of its qualities and capabilities, makes the
> > >>>>>>> future sound rather ominous.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> What does this model predict in terms of future optical quality?
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Steve
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> Cheers
> > >>>>>>>> Jayanand
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> On Sat, May 25, 2013 at 6:13 PM, Nathan Wajsman
> > >>>>>>>> <photo at frozenlight.eu
> > >>>>>>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> Right. So Leica has made a strategic shift from the
> > >>>>>>>>> photography business to the jewelry business. Fair enough, the
> > >>>>>>>>> Blackstone people obviously
> > >>>>>>> know
> > >>>>>>>>> where the money is. But then they should be up front about it
> > >>>>>>>>> so that
> > >>>>>>> the
> > >>>>>>>>> photography dealers can switch their focus to companies that
> > >>>>>>>>> actually
> > >>>>>>> are
> > >>>>>>>>> interested in supplying photographers.
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> Cheers,
> > >>>>>>>>> Nathan
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> Nathan Wajsman
> > >>>>>>>>> Alicante, Spain
> > >>>>>>>>> http://www.frozenlight.eu
> > >>>>>>>>> http://www.greatpix.eu
> > >>>>>>>>> PICTURE OF THE WEEK: http://www.fotocycle.dk/paws
> > >>>>>>>>> Blog: http://nathansmusings.wordpress.com/
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> YNWA
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> On May 25, 2013, at 2:28 PM, Joseph Yao wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> Leica have been shipping sufficient quantities of the new
> > >>>>>>>>>> M240.  They
> > >>>>>>> may
> > >>>>>>>>>> not have been sending them to their 'traditional' markets
> > >>>>>>>>>> where their
> > >>>>>>>>> profit
> > >>>>>>>>>> margins are lower.  You will see plenty of M240 in, for
> > >>>>>>>>>> example,
> > >>>>>>> Beijing
> > >>>>>>>>> and
> > >>>>>>>>>> Shanghai, where the going rate for one is US$12,000 to
> > US$13,000.
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> A handful of limited production silver chrome MM have been
> > >>>>>>>>>> made for the Chinese market, and available at RMB 1,581,000
> > >>>>>>>>>> each, approx.
> > >>>>>>> US$258,280.
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> Joseph
> > >>>>>>>>>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Leica Users Group.
> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information
>



-- 
Regards,

Sonny
http://sonc.com/look/
Natchitoches, Louisiana

USA


Replies: Reply from john at mcmaster.co.nz (John McMaster) ([Leica] PESO: RG Lewis and Leica M frustrations)
In reply to: Message from r.s.taylor at comcast.net (Richard Taylor) ([Leica] PESO: RG Lewis and Leica M frustrations)
Message from mark at rabinergroup.com (Mark Rabiner) ([Leica] PESO: RG Lewis and Leica M frustrations)
Message from john at mcmaster.co.nz (John McMaster) ([Leica] PESO: RG Lewis and Leica M frustrations)