[Leica] PESO: RG Lewis and Leica M frustrations

[john at mcmaster.co.nz (John McMaster)]

I would expect as good a print off a decent m4/3 or APS-C as I would 35mm 
film (unless you want grain), digital FF is beyond most medium format film 
IMO.

john

> -----Original Message-----
> From: lug-bounces+john=mcmaster.co.nz at leica-users.org [mailto:lug-
> bounces+john=mcmaster.co.nz at leica-users.org] On Behalf Of Mark Rabiner
> Sent: Sunday, 26 May 2013 6:20 p.m.
> To: Leica Users Group
> Subject: Re: [Leica] PESO: RG Lewis and Leica M frustrations
> 
> If that were true there would have been a huge market for half frame film
> cameras before digital hit. There was none because the quality difference
> between half frame and full frame.  And the slightly smaller camera body
> form you'd get with half frame was really not worth it. Full frame cameras 
> fit
> in your pocket.
> Most of the pre digital compact cameras were made with a 35mm cassette
> and
> 24x36 format so the end result was really in the more important ways not 
> all
> the different from a  hulking SLR weighing 2 or 3 pounds.
> When you needed that big print you could get it with the camera you pulled
> out of your pocket.
> 
> The problem is in this digital age people think this carries over.
> They're going to just shoot with a compact camera and its just going to be
> just fine like when they shot with their olupus XA or Rollei 35 or Contax 
> or
> Nikon.
> But oops the sensor is a fraction of the size!
> "Well who cameras I just want it to be cheap and fit in my pocket and I'll 
> buy
> a better one in two year's."
> 
> Few people who shot 35mm film ever make 11x14's or 16x20s ever.
> But when they did need perhaps unexpended to make print of some real
> size they mare able to do it.
> Shoot with a compact with a much smaller size that 24x36 and that's not 
> going
> to be an option.  That large print which you out of the blue need to make 
> will
> embarrass you.
> The fact is when your out shooting with a compact digital consumer compact
> you're just not getting the shot. Sure its on your little web page or 
> gallery but
> realistically  its just a shell game. You're really just pretending. Its a 
> jpeg.
> I say if you're going to drag yourself out somewhere and stand there and do
> a photograph why not really do it? And not with a stupid toy camera?
> 
> 
> On 5/25/13 3:05 PM, "Richard S. Taylor" <r.s.taylor at comcast.net> wrote:
> 
> > Steve - I agree with this completely.  Sensor size is only relevant to
> > the size of print you want to make, the noise you can live with, and
> > the dynamic range you need.  For much, maybe most of what I do,
> > micro-4/3rds is just fine even though I'm shooting mostly with a X Pro-1
> these days.
> >
> > I still think Leica missed the boat by not bringing out a very high
> > quality micro-4/3rds camera system.  It would have been following in
> > the great tradition of the company.
> >
> > There may be some movement in the press towards trying smaller sensor
> sizes.
> > This year at the Boston Symphony concerts, the photographer covering
> > them for the Boston Globe has switched from a big DSLR in a even
> > larger wooden blimp to what looks to me to be a Panasonic GX-1 with a
> > long zoom and no blimp.  It will be interesting to see if he returns 
> > with it
> next year.
> >
> > Dick
> >
> >
> >
> > On May 25, 2013, at 2:48 PM, Steve Barbour wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> On May 25, 2013, at 10:01 AM, Richard Taylor <r.s.taylor at comcast.net>
> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Well, as others have said, it's hard to imagine Leica competing with
> >>> themselves so FF is not a starter, I think.  Fuji and others have
> >>> shown what can be done with APS-C so if the build and image quality
> >>> with M lenses were high, I might go for that price.
> >>
> >> Remember Dick that there is nothing sacred about going to "full
> >> frame" except (other things being equal) that bigger is better (sorta
> >> like film). So why stop at full frame  ? When you get to full frame,
> >> you will still want a bigger sensor, and as the Sony RX1 has shown
> >> you can put a full frame sensor in a small camera body. And so it
> >> goes endlessly, unless at some point you say, I like my images just the
> way they are.
> >>
> >>
> >> Steve
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Dick
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On May 25, 2013, at 12:23 PM, grduprey at mchsi.com wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> $3.5 K would not be acceptable for a APS-C camera, a FF camera
> >>>> would be another thing all together.
> >>>>
> >>>> Gene
> >>>>
> >>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>> From: "Richard Taylor" <r.s.taylor at comcast.net>
> >>>> To: "Leica Users Group" <lug at leica-users.org>
> >>>> Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2013 11:00:36 AM GMT -06:00 US/Canada
> >>>> Central
> >>>> Subject: Re: [Leica] PESO: RG Lewis and Leica M frustrations
> >>>>
> >>>> I think Steve has it right.  Unless the Mini proves to be a useable
> >>>> camera at an acceptable price, Leica will have truly and finally
> >>>> abandoned those of us looking for a practical tool in favor of the 
> >>>> gifters
> and collectors.
> >>>>
> >>>> Useable to my mind means that the camera has at least an APS-C
> >>>> sensor, a built-in EVF of a quality like that in the XE-1, and
> >>>> microlenses on the sensor to let us use M lenses with excellent
> >>>> image quality with or without an adapter.  The anticipated price of
> >>>> about $3.5K would be in the acceptable range for me if the camera met
> the other criteria.
> >>>>
> >>>> Dick
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On May 25, 2013, at 11:05 AM, Steve Barbour wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On May 25, 2013, at 7:21 AM, Geoff Hopkinson
> <hopsternew at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> I don't know if this translates well. In Australia we call this the 
> >>>>>> "
> >>>>>> tall
> >>>>>> poppy syndrome". Some people enjoy taking swipes at anyone
> successful.
> >>>>>> Good
> >>>>>> on them. Of course it is in our interest too that Leica Camera does
> well.
> >>>>>> They make products that some of us value a lot for the
> >>>>>> photographs that we can make with them and for the experience of
> >>>>>> using those products to achieve that, They can sell as much as
> >>>>>> they want to anyone that may value their products for whatever
> >>>>>> reason they wish. Why would you care if you value Leica for the
> >>>>>> photographs you can make?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> If at this time virtually all of the product is going to people
> >>>>> who don't make photographs, you can bet that I/we should care
> >>>>> about it. Of course it is impacting our ability to make photos
> >>>>> right now. But I don't think that you have answered my question.
> >>>>> The short run is already surely impacted as I have just noted. I
> >>>>> was asking about the longer run. What does this model predict in
> terms of future optical quality?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I am now using a wonderful 1950's Leica Summicron 50/2 on a
> >>>>> Fujifilm XE-1 body, with a better experience and with better
> >>>>> results than with the latest Leica glass on my M9. Leica quality
> >>>>> clearly is already compromised, and their plan to sell expensive
> >>>>> gear to non users means that they are not currently giving
> >>>>> priority to the practical needs of professionals and discriminating
> users.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Steve
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> *Breathe in, breathe out, move on* -- Jimmy Buffett
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Cheers
> >>>>>> Geoff
> >>>>>> http://www.pbase.com/hoppyman
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On 26 May 2013 00:04, Steve Barbour <steve.barbour at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On May 25, 2013, at 6:55 AM, Jayanand Govindaraj
> >>>>>>> <jayanand at gmail.com>
> >>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Nathan,
> >>>>>>>> It has taken you a very long time to realize and accept this. I
> >>>>>>>> was sure
> >>>>>>> of
> >>>>>>>> the strategic shift in marketing with the M8 itself - it was so
> >>>>>>>> obvious
> >>>>>>>> -
> >>>>>>>> the marketing, the choice of magazines for advertisements, the
> >>>>>>> positioning,
> >>>>>>>> the advertorials, etc. With Blackstone's entrance, it was
> >>>>>>>> doubly obvious, especially when the ostensible reason for the
> >>>>>>>> investment was to spread
> >>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>> Leica Boutiques, not develop new products. IMHO, it is great
> >>>>>>>> for them, because as in all MOJO businesses, the margins are
> >>>>>>>> obscene, and as Joseph points out, there are enough people in
> >>>>>>>> the emerging world to pay for the bulk of the production (not
> >>>>>>>> only the M series but the S series as well).
> >>>>>>> It
> >>>>>>>> is not dissimilar to what the Bordeaux market has gone through
> >>>>>>>> in the
> >>>>>>> last
> >>>>>>>> few years, and what the Burgundy market is going through now -
> >>>>>>>> though I believe that over 50% of the bottles sold in China are
> >>>>>>>> fakes, because as
> >>>>>>> in
> >>>>>>>> all such markets, the labels matter (Mojo), not the intrinsic
> quality.
> >>>>>>>> It
> >>>>>>>> will be interesting to see what will happen to Leica as growth
> >>>>>>>> in China keeps slowing down, as is bound to happen. Remember,
> >>>>>>>> this will shaft the Russian  market as well, because energy
> >>>>>>>> prices would nosedive. As far as
> >>>>>>> I
> >>>>>>>> can see, they have alienated most of their traditional
> >>>>>>>> clientele, bar a few, and I wonder where they would go to make
> >>>>>>>> up the volumes. They just
> >>>>>>> do
> >>>>>>>> not have a diversified enough customer base to withstand a big
> >>>>>>>> topline
> >>>>>>> hit.
> >>>>>>>> It is going to be interesting. The best thing for all of us
> >>>>>>>> would be if
> >>>>>>> all
> >>>>>>>> those unused Leicas in China come on the used market at the
> >>>>>>>> same time, as herd behaviour takes hold, and cause a glut
> >>>>>>>> there.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I would look to a Leica IPO for Blackstone and Kaufmann to cash
> >>>>>>>> out
> >>>>>>> sooner
> >>>>>>>> rather than later, if growth in China keeps drifting down.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Jayanand,
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> jewelry for rich clients who don't use it, or who use it with
> >>>>>>> minimal knowledge of its qualities and capabilities, makes the
> >>>>>>> future sound rather ominous.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> What does this model predict in terms of future optical quality?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Steve
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Cheers
> >>>>>>>> Jayanand
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> On Sat, May 25, 2013 at 6:13 PM, Nathan Wajsman
> >>>>>>>> <photo at frozenlight.eu
> >>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Right. So Leica has made a strategic shift from the
> >>>>>>>>> photography business to the jewelry business. Fair enough, the
> >>>>>>>>> Blackstone people obviously
> >>>>>>> know
> >>>>>>>>> where the money is. But then they should be up front about it
> >>>>>>>>> so that
> >>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>> photography dealers can switch their focus to companies that
> >>>>>>>>> actually
> >>>>>>> are
> >>>>>>>>> interested in supplying photographers.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Cheers,
> >>>>>>>>> Nathan
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Nathan Wajsman
> >>>>>>>>> Alicante, Spain
> >>>>>>>>> http://www.frozenlight.eu
> >>>>>>>>> http://www.greatpix.eu
> >>>>>>>>> PICTURE OF THE WEEK: http://www.fotocycle.dk/paws
> >>>>>>>>> Blog: http://nathansmusings.wordpress.com/
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> YNWA
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> On May 25, 2013, at 2:28 PM, Joseph Yao wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Leica have been shipping sufficient quantities of the new
> >>>>>>>>>> M240.  They
> >>>>>>> may
> >>>>>>>>>> not have been sending them to their 'traditional' markets
> >>>>>>>>>> where their
> >>>>>>>>> profit
> >>>>>>>>>> margins are lower.  You will see plenty of M240 in, for
> >>>>>>>>>> example,
> >>>>>>> Beijing
> >>>>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>>>> Shanghai, where the going rate for one is US$12,000 to
> US$13,000.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> A handful of limited production silver chrome MM have been
> >>>>>>>>>> made for the Chinese market, and available at RMB 1,581,000
> >>>>>>>>>> each, approx.
> >>>>>>> US$258,280.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Joseph
> >>>>>>>>>>