Archived posting to the Leica Users Group, 2012/10/16

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Subject: [Leica] PESO: Do not
From: bjq1 at mac.com (Bernard Quinn)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2012 20:39:40 -0400
References: <CCA3300C.1ED7D%chris@chriscrawfordphoto.com>

Chris,

I think this is an excellent, thoughtful post which makes a number of 
excellent points all of which I agree with. I want to be very clear about 
something. I do not for a moment challenge Jim's right to publish any 
photograph he wants. In fact, I support it. Nor do I think for a moment that 
he posted this photograph to promote racism. Far from it. I suspect that the 
people who put the sticker on their car did so out of fear, uncertainty, and 
anger. I support their right to stick what ever they want on their car. I 
particularly agree with your point that you do not have to look very far or 
dig too deeply to find racism in the North. 

I spent the first half of my working life in the news business. I have 
produced many documentaries. I understand the process and purpose of 
documenting the good, the bad, and the ugly  very well. I've done it for a 
living. 

The picture did not offend you. It bothered me a lot. That's fine. Different 
things bother different people.  I was careful to explain what it was in my 
background which caused my concern and why I reacted the way I did.

If the people who own the car have a right to put a bumper sticker on it and 
if Jim has a right to post a photograph of it then I also have a right to 
point out that material of this sort, valuable document or not, points down 
a very slippery slope which causes me a lot of concern. 

Barney


Barney Quinn, WK3Z
C: (301) 775-1386
H: (301) 654-0938

On Oct 16, 2012, at 3:50 PM, Chris Crawford <chris at 
chriscrawfordphoto.com> wrote:

> The photo is not offensive at all. Jim didn't post it to encourage racism.
> He made the photo as a documentation of the attitudes that are still all
> too common in the USA, and its importance as a document is even more
> profound in that it was taken in a northern state, not the deep south. A
> lot of Americans don't realize that such attitudes are very common in the
> north, because all the media tells us is that the south is where all the
> racism is.
> 
> Your uncle's experience shows that the north can be just as bad as the
> deep south. History books are filled with instances of the KKK burning
> black churches and businesses in Alabama and Mississippi, and are often
> very silent about such things in New York, or Pennsylvania (where Jim
> lives). My home state, Indiana, is a major KKK stronghold. The area of
> Fort Wayne where I live, Waynedale, had its own KKK chapter when I was a
> kid. They held a parade in Waynedale in 1982! I remember seeing it in
> person when I was a little kid! In the early 1990s, the largest KKK in the
> country, the American Knights Church of the Ku Klux Klan, was based in a
> small town about 10 miles north of Fort Wayne. The group's leader went on
> Jerry Springer three times!
> 
> Many people don't realize that kind of thing exists in the northern
> states, like Indiana, Pennsylvania, and New York. I'm glad Jim made that
> photo, its an important historical document. Evidence that racism is not
> dead, not even in the north, and we have a lot of work to do to defeat it.
> If you're interested in learning more about the history of racism in the
> north, check out James Loewen's book, "Sundown Towns: A Hidden Dimension
> of American Racism." It is about small towns in the midwest and northeast
> that prohibited blacks from living in them, and which required black
> visitors to leave by sundown. Most of the small towns around Fort Wayne
> were sundown towns. He also discusses all white suburbs outside cities
> like New York and Chicago.
> 
> -- 
> Chris Crawford
> Fine Art Photography
> Fort Wayne, Indiana
> 260-437-8990
> 
> http://www.chriscrawfordphoto.com  My portfolio
> 
> http://blog.chriscrawfordphoto.com  My latest work!
> 
> http://www.facebook.com/pages/Christopher-Crawford/48229272798
> Become a fan on Facebook
> 
> 
> 
> On 10/16/12 3:26 PM, "bjq1 at mac.com" <bjq1 at mac.com> wrote:
> 
>> 
>> I want to tell you about my Uncle Barney. Actually my Great Uncle Barney.
>> I am proud to be named after him. He was an Army Chaplain during World
>> War I. Rather than live in relative comfort behind the lines he insisted
>> in being in the trenches with his men. He was gassed twice by the
>> Germans. He was told as a result that he would probably develop and die
>> from cancer, He did.
>> 
>> He founded the first church for Black Catholics in the United States. In
>> Brooklyn. He also founded an orphanage for Black Children in Wading
>> River, NY. It was burned down twice by the KKK. I still remember the
>> stories my Dad and my Uncles told me about helping Uncle Barney rebuild
>> his orphanage. He is in the process of being made a Saint in the roman
>> Catholic Church.
>> 
>> Yes, free speech gets ugly. But, there are two free speech issues here.
>> One is the right of the owner of the car to put such a sticker on their
>> car and the second is your right to post a picture of in on the internet.
>> I support both. But, I also want to tell you that I found your picture
>> profoundly offensive. Posting it may be a legitimate exercise of your
>> rights to free speech, but I can tell you from my own experience that ti
>> is also playing with fire. Ugly can be fanned into very real flames all
>> too easily?.
>> 
>> Barney
>> 
>> 
>> E-Mail: bjq1 at mac.com
>> Home: (301) 654-0938
>> Cell: (301) 775-1386
>> 
>> 
>> On Oct 16, 2012, at 02:36 PM, Jim Shulman <jshulman at judgecrater.com>
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> Unfortunately, free speech can be often really vile and ugly. Evidently
>>> this fellow (or lady) feels confident enough to append the message to a
>>> car worth several thousand dollars. In Philadelphia, the car wouldn't
>>> last three blocks.
>>> 
>>> Jim
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: lug-bounces+jshulman=judgecrater.com at leica-users.org
>>> [mailto:lug-bounces+jshulman=judgecrater.com at leica-users.org] On 
>>> Behalf
>>> Of
>>> philippe.amard
>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2012 1:57 PM
>>> To: Leica Users Group
>>> Subject: Re: [Leica] PESO: Do not
>>> 
>>> Would end up in court over here - and rightly so.
>>> 
>>> Outrageous!
>>> 
>>> Ph
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Le 16 oct. 12 ? 16:57, Jim Shulman a ?crit :
>>> 
>>>> Probably a lot more pervasive than we'd like to believe. You have to
>>>> go to the hinterlands in order to find someone who is comfortable
>>>> pasting this on their car bumper.
>>>> 
>>>> Best,
>>>> Jim
>>>> 
>>>> Off this weekend to photograph more ephemeral political message signs
>>>> and other displays.
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: lug-bounces+jshulman=judgecrater.com at leica-users.org
>>>> [mailto:lug-bounces+jshulman=judgecrater.com at leica-users.org] On
>>>> Behalf Of Chuck DeSantis
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2012 10:49 AM
>>>> To: Leica Users Group
>>>> Subject: Re: [Leica] PESO: Do not
>>>> 
>>>> Truly despicable!
>>>> 
>>>> Chuck
>>>> 
>>>> And yes, it takes something as vile as that to get me out of lurk
>>>> mode.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On 10/16/12 8:47 AM, Tina Manley wrote:
>>>>> That is the worst bumper sticker I have ever seen!
>>>>> 
>>>>> Tina
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Tue, Oct 16, 2012 at 7:17 AM, Jim Shulman
>>>> <jshulman at judgecrater.com>wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> http://gallery.leica-users.org/v/focusit/do+not+sm.jpg.html
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Leica M3, 28/3.5 CV, Neopan 100
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Jim Shulman
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Wynnewood, PA
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Leica Users Group.
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>>>> 
>>>> 
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>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
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>> 
>> _______________________________________________
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> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Leica Users Group.
> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information


Replies: Reply from Frank.Dernie at btinternet.com (Frank Dernie) ([Leica] PESO: Do not)
In reply to: Message from chris at chriscrawfordphoto.com (Chris Crawford) ([Leica] PESO: Do not)