Archived posting to the Leica Users Group, 2011/11/03

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Subject: [Leica] 1.8 vs. 1.4!?!?
From: philippe.amard at sfr.fr (philippe.amard)
Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 22:07:42 +0100
References: <BLU116-W10E288CD5BDB1E7AB92EBC2D50@phx.gbl> <p0624080acad8a6fd27f6@[192.168.1.104]>

Now some manufacturers - Pentax to name just one - had 50mm 1.4 and  
55mm 1.8 on their catalogues: which of these offered better bokeh or  
faster takes?

I'm so happy to have a full auto mode on my camera right now.

Philippe looking for aspirin and about to call Doctor Ted



Le 3 nov. 11 ? 21:40, Herbert Kanner a ?crit :

> After this, the dead horse should stay dead.
>
> While your mathematics is correct, I differ with your conclusions.  
> It relates to a distinction between "f numbers" and "stops". Agreed:  
> reciprocal of the square of the f number is proportional to the  
> amount of light getting through. But the question was: "What  
> fraction of a stop is the difference between two f numbers?".
>
> Now, the stops on a lens aperture ring are an arbitrary choice,  
> general;y meaning a factor of two in exposure. So going, say three  
> stops toward smaller f numbers doubles the exposure three times, or  
> 2 to the power 3. Now, let's think about this example of three  
> stops: f/4, f/5.6, and f/11, pretend we don't know that those three  
> numbers are engraved on the aperture ring, and ask: "How many stops  
> are the distance between f/4 and f/11. First, realize that the  
> conventional set of stops aren't exactly a factor 2 in exposure  
> because the lens manufacturers in their wisdom wanted the f numbers  
> to not have more than two digits; who would like 3.99762 engraved on  
> their aperture ring? So, f/4 to f/11 is actually a change in  
> exposure of 7.5625, close enough to 8.
>
> Next let's go backward, again pretending ignorance of aperture ring  
> numbers, and ask how many "stops" change is f/4 to f/11. take 11/4  
> and square it, getting, as before, 7.5625. Take the logarithm (base  
> 2) of 7.5625, and you get 2.918, which is the actual theoretical  
> number of stops, and close enough to the three notches on the ring.
>
> That is the way I calculated the number of stops between 1.8 and 1.4.
>
> How do you calculate log(base 2) of something. Just divide its  
> log(base 10) by log of 2 (base 10)
>
> Herb
>
>
>
>> Time to beat a dead horse!  If anyone is interested:
>>
>> It is all geometry, namely the area of a circle.
>>
>> For each f-stop, we have double the light.  The f-stop is related to
>> the size of the aperture, which is approximated as a circle.  The
>> amount of light coming is proportional to the circle's area, which
>> you may recall is pi times the radius squared, pi*r^2.  We use the
>> f# for the equivalent radius.
>>
>> Thus, starting with f1, and r = 1, the area is pi*r^2 = pi*1*1 = pi,
>> as the relative amount of light.
>>
>> For an amount of light 2*pi (next f-stop, double the light), pi*r^2
>> = 2 pi.  Divide both sides by pi, and you get r^2 =2.  r = the
>> square root of 2, or 1.414?  f1.4 is the next stop.
>>
>> This is where the 1.4 factor George mentioned comes from; the square
>> root of 2 is 1.414.
>>
>> Next f-stop, double the light again: pi*r^2 = 2*2 pi. r^2  = 4, f2
>> is the next stop.
>>
>> So, if you want fractional stops:
>>
>> 1/3 stop:   Square root of 1.333 = 1.15456
>> 1/2 stop:   Square root of 1.5     = 1.22474
>> 2/3 stop:   Square root of 1.667 = 1.29112
>>
>> So going back to Mark's f1.4 example:
>> 1/3 stop slower = 1.414 * 1.15456 = f1.633 or f1.6
>> 1/2 stop slower = 1.414 * 1.22474 = f1.732 or f 1.7
>> 2/3 stop slower = 1.414 * 1.29112 = f1.828 or f1.8
>> 1 stop slower = 1.414 * 1.414 =  f2.0
>>
>>
>> Matt
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Nov 2, 2011, at 5:32 PM, Mark Rabiner wrote:
>>
>> > I looked up f 1.8 vs. 1.4 thinking it was between a half and a  
>> quarter of a
>> > stop and they are saying its 2/3rds!?!?! Anybody know that that's  
>> true?
>> >
>> > Where is there a photo calculator that tells you these things?!?!?
>>
>> I always thought the basic math for 1 f stop revolved around a  
>> factor of 1.4.
>> 1.4 x 1.4 = 1.96
>> 1.8 / 1.4 = 1.29
>>
>> so - yes - 2/3 would seem close enough for?
>> what? I'm not sure.
>>
>> Regards,
>> George Lottermoser
>> george at imagist.com
>> http://www.imagist.com
>> http://www.imagist.com/blog
>> http://www.linkedin.com/in/imagist
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Leica Users Group.
>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information
>
> -- 
> Herbert Kanner
> kanner at acm.org
> 650-326-8204
>
> Question authority and the authorities will question you.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Leica Users Group.
> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information


Replies: Reply from jhnichols at lighttube.net (Jim Nichols) ([Leica] 1.8 vs. 1.4!?!?)
Reply from mark at rabinergroup.com (Mark Rabiner) ([Leica] 1.8 vs. 1.4!?!?)
In reply to: Message from filippiniaia at hotmail.com (Matthew B. Filippini) ([Leica] 1.8 vs. 1.4!?!?)
Message from kanner at acm.org (Herbert Kanner) ([Leica] 1.8 vs. 1.4!?!?)