[Leica] D700 or D7000

[mark at rabinergroup.com (Mark Rabiner)]

Peter the pros in Lincoln Nebraska are all using 5D's and D700 just like the
pros in New York.
When you were shooting an M6 you were shooting a pro level camera.
If you now get a cropped digital camera you've just stepped down. You've
spent big money on a toy. Your no longer are in the big time you've got
yourself a camera for shooting kids opening holiday presents. While the dad
next to you is getting it with a full frame.
-- 
Mark R.



> From: "Peter A. Klein" <pklein at threshinc.com>
> Reply-To: Leica Users Group <lug at leica-users.org>
> Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2011 00:22:06 -0700
> To: Leica Users Group <lug at leica-users.org>
> Subject: Re: [Leica] D700 or D7000
> 
> Wow, I want to thank everyone for the helpful comments. There's such a
> wealth of experience on the LUG.
> 
> I probably should have included in my original post: "The defense
> stipulates that we know Mark Rabiner doesn't like cropped sensors."
> :-)  Mark raises many valid concerns, but some of them may be more
> important in his word as a NYC pro than in my world as a dedicated
> Seattle amateur.  There are many dedicated amateurs doing perfectly fine
> with APS-C sensors, including a number of them right here on the LUG.
> And frankly, Mark, some of what you say is the same stuff the Speed
> Graphics folks were saying about Leicas (and even Rolleiflexes) in the
> 1940s. Then there's the little matter of that D40x and D200 you shot
> with for years.
> 
> Alastair's pictures (thanks much, Alastair!) show that there is indeed a
> sigificant high-ISO difference between the cropped D7000 sensor and the
> big, full-frame D700. But the D7000 is no slouch, either, and the D700
> is a weighty, expensive, hulking beast. The question is whether I would
> be hampered by the D7000 in the kind of shooting I do. I'm not a
> long-telephoto bird shooter. And I'm not a pro, so I don't *have* to
> have the very best just to stay competitive. I only have to satisfy myself.
> 
> One of the curses of digital is that when you buy a camera, you are
> buying all the "film" you'll ever use with it. You can't alternate
> between Velvia 50 and T-Max 3200 in your DigiBrick like you could with
> your Leica M or R or Nikon F or whatever. The sensor is what the sensor
> is, And if that sensor is in a camera that is big and heavy, that is
> what it is, too.
> 
> That's the curse. One of the blessings of digital is that it's shown us
> that there is no such thing as perfection. There's only what's good
> enough for our particular situation. We can blow things up to 400% and
> obsess about flaws we may never see in a print. Or we can obsess about
> picayune imperfections in IQ that matter only to photo editors of stock
> agencies and major publications, who use them as a quick and easy way to
> winnow down the stack of submissions without thinking about what the
> image would actually look like on their pages. In Mark's world, they
> hyper-competitive NYC pro scene, that's a real consideration. But I
> don't live in that world. And money is a real consideration for me--I'm
> not going to make it back on my first couple of assignments.
> 
> I decided that the M8 was worth it to me. I bought one new once all the
> problems were known quantities, and I've been very happy with it. I wish
> it was full-frame, mainly because I have a bunch of 50mm lenses I'd love
> to use on it as "fifties." But aside from that, the crop factor really
> didn't bother me. In fact, I like slightly wider 35mm view on an M8 a
> little better than the view of a real 50 on film. Anyway, full frame or
> no, the incremental improvement of the M9 wasn't worth the upgrade cost
> to me. Your mileage may vary. Now,if an M10 comes out with a
> game-changing low-light sensor, I probably would want it. Whether I can
> afford it is another matter.
> 
> Up until recently, I would have agreed with Mark that when it came to
> low light, there was the D700 and everything else. No crop-sensor would
> have given me game-changing low light performance relative to my M8 and
> 35/1.4 But the new sensors in the D7000/K5 (and X100) really are are
> game-changers. So I'm considering them. I also know that every time I
> pick up a D700, my reaction is, "I'm not going to carry that thing
> around." Well, If I'm not going to carry it around, what good is it to
> me? So the question is, if I can get better, usable people-picture ISO
> 3200 performance with the D7000 than I get with the M8 at 640, and I
> *would* carry it around, then maybe that's worth more to me than a D700
> I wouldn't carry around.
> 
> I no longer ask myself whether I can achieve perfection.  I ask if such
> and such camera will take significantly better pictures than I can take
> now, and whether it's worth the money for me to buy it.  At this point,
> the jury is still out on both Nikons.  I might start working out with
> weights and eventually scoop up a D700 from someone who has to have its
> replacement. Or I might spring for the D7000. Or do nothing. We'll see.
> 
> --Peter
> 
> 
> 
>> They are out of it now and have been for about 2 months, I have been
>> checking the major shops for over 2 months and they are no where to be
>> found.  Until Nikon gets it pro factory back on line, they are as
> rare as
>> hens teeth.
> 
>> Gene
> 
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Mark Rabiner" <mark at rabinergroup.com>
>> To: "Leica Users Group" <lug at leica-users.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2011 12:37:54 AM GMT -06:00 US/Canada Central
>> Subject: Re: [Leica] Thinking about a D700 or D7000
> 
>> I got my D700 nine months ago at B&H where I've got most my gear for 30
>> years. I've never seen them out of stock on it.
>> I recommend picking a major supplier and sticking with it.
>> That way they know you.
>> If you ever get a blooper you can then take it back. Because they
> know you
>> are a regular customer and they value your business.
>> For awhile CAMERA WORLD in Portland Oregon got most my photographer
> friends
>> attention but when they were bought out we were back getting our
> stuff from
>> the other coast at B&H again. But now I'm here and I'm face to face with
>> those guys. A much better way to do biz if you ask me.
>> --
>> Mark R.
> 
> 
> 
>> From: Gene duprey <grduprey at mchsi.com>
>> Reply-To: Leica Users Group <lug at leica-users.org>
>> Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2011 00:22:41 -0500 (CDT)
>> To: Leica Users Group <lug at leica-users.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Leica] Thinking about a D700 or D7000
>> 
>> Peter,
>> 
>> I have also looked into the D700, which seems to be unfortunately very
>> hard to
>> find in dealers shelves, outside of the occasional demo.  My big
> gripe is
>> the
>> loud mirror noise, seems they save some bucks by using the low end
> mirror
>> box
>> mechanicals over the quieter high end parts.  It sounds like several
> mouse
>> traps going off at once, IMHO.  Outside of that I like the cameras
>> performance.  As to the D7000, I have not looked at it since I am only
>> interested in a FF body.  I have looked at the Sony A900 & A850 FF
> bodies,
>> and
>> while quieter than the D700, they are still noisier than my R8DMR.  But
>> they
>> do offer quite a few interesting features.
>> 
>> Gene
>> 
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Peter Klein" <pklein at threshinc.com>
>> To: "lug" <lug at leica-users.org>
>> Sent: Friday, August 12, 2011 11:31:02 PM GMT -06:00 US/Canada Central
>> Subject: [Leica] Thinking about a D700 or D7000
>> 
>> Today I was at Glazer's in Seattle, and had a chance to handle two
>> cameras that interest me--the Nikon D700 and D7000.  I've long had a bit
>> of D700-lust, as it is one of the best available-dark cameras out there.
>> I liked the big viewfinder of the D700 But after hefting them both, I
>> looked at the D700 and thought, "would you really carry that around
>> much?" Hmm--maybe not. Still, the ability to shoot at ISO 3200 like I
>> shoot the M8 at 800 is very tempting.
>> 
>> On the other hand, the D7000 seems like a "Goldilocks" camera--a lot
>> about it is "just right." It felt good in my hands. The viewfinder is
>> not as spacious as the D700, but quite usable. The new sensor (also in
>> the Pentax K5) has previously unheard-of performance (for an APS-C
>> sensor) in both dynamic range and low light ability. There are buttons
>> for the commonly-used functions. The shutter is relatively quiet (the
>> D700 is MUCH louder). Dpreview and DXOMark comparisons indicate it might
>> have a 1-stop low-light advantage over the M8, compared to the D700's 2
>> stops or more. But that's lab tests.  How about in real life?
>> 
>> So...  I would be interested in anyone's experience with the D700 and/or
>> D7000--particularly those who can compare it to the M8 or M9.  I know
>> the difference between an SLR and a rangefinder. I'm most interested in
>> image quality, handling, and real-world available-dark performance. K5
>> users are welcome to chime in, too.
>> 
>> --Peter
>> 
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