Archived posting to the Leica Users Group, 2011/08/14

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Subject: [Leica] D700 or D7000
From: pklein at threshinc.com (Peter Klein)
Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2011 00:22:06 -0700

Wow, I want to thank everyone for the helpful comments. There's such a 
wealth of experience on the LUG.

I probably should have included in my original post: "The defense 
stipulates that we know Mark Rabiner doesn't like cropped sensors."  
:-)  Mark raises many valid concerns, but some of them may be more 
important in his word as a NYC pro than in my world as a dedicated 
Seattle amateur.  There are many dedicated amateurs doing perfectly fine 
with APS-C sensors, including a number of them right here on the LUG.  
And frankly, Mark, some of what you say is the same stuff the Speed 
Graphics folks were saying about Leicas (and even Rolleiflexes) in the 
1940s. Then there's the little matter of that D40x and D200 you shot 
with for years.

Alastair's pictures (thanks much, Alastair!) show that there is indeed a 
sigificant high-ISO difference between the cropped D7000 sensor and the 
big, full-frame D700. But the D7000 is no slouch, either, and the D700 
is a weighty, expensive, hulking beast. The question is whether I would 
be hampered by the D7000 in the kind of shooting I do. I'm not a 
long-telephoto bird shooter. And I'm not a pro, so I don't *have* to 
have the very best just to stay competitive. I only have to satisfy myself.

One of the curses of digital is that when you buy a camera, you are 
buying all the "film" you'll ever use with it. You can't alternate 
between Velvia 50 and T-Max 3200 in your DigiBrick like you could with 
your Leica M or R or Nikon F or whatever. The sensor is what the sensor 
is, And if that sensor is in a camera that is big and heavy, that is 
what it is, too.

That's the curse. One of the blessings of digital is that it's shown us 
that there is no such thing as perfection. There's only what's good 
enough for our particular situation. We can blow things up to 400% and 
obsess about flaws we may never see in a print. Or we can obsess about 
picayune imperfections in IQ that matter only to photo editors of stock 
agencies and major publications, who use them as a quick and easy way to 
winnow down the stack of submissions without thinking about what the 
image would actually look like on their pages. In Mark's world, they 
hyper-competitive NYC pro scene, that's a real consideration. But I 
don't live in that world. And money is a real consideration for me--I'm 
not going to make it back on my first couple of assignments.

I decided that the M8 was worth it to me. I bought one new once all the 
problems were known quantities, and I've been very happy with it. I wish 
it was full-frame, mainly because I have a bunch of 50mm lenses I'd love 
to use on it as "fifties." But aside from that, the crop factor really 
didn't bother me. In fact, I like slightly wider 35mm view on an M8 a 
little better than the view of a real 50 on film. Anyway, full frame or 
no, the incremental improvement of the M9 wasn't worth the upgrade cost 
to me. Your mileage may vary. Now,if an M10 comes out with a 
game-changing low-light sensor, I probably would want it. Whether I can 
afford it is another matter.

Up until recently, I would have agreed with Mark that when it came to 
low light, there was the D700 and everything else. No crop-sensor would 
have given me game-changing low light performance relative to my M8 and 
35/1.4 But the new sensors in the D7000/K5 (and X100) really are are 
game-changers. So I'm considering them. I also know that every time I 
pick up a D700, my reaction is, "I'm not going to carry that thing 
around." Well, If I'm not going to carry it around, what good is it to 
me? So the question is, if I can get better, usable people-picture ISO 
3200 performance with the D7000 than I get with the M8 at 640, and I 
*would* carry it around, then maybe that's worth more to me than a D700 
I wouldn't carry around.

I no longer ask myself whether I can achieve perfection.  I ask if such 
and such camera will take significantly better pictures than I can take 
now, and whether it's worth the money for me to buy it.  At this point, 
the jury is still out on both Nikons.  I might start working out with 
weights and eventually scoop up a D700 from someone who has to have its 
replacement. Or I might spring for the D7000. Or do nothing. We'll see.

--Peter



 > They are out of it now and have been for about 2 months, I have been
 > checking the major shops for over 2 months and they are no where to be
 > found.  Until Nikon gets it pro factory back on line, they are as 
rare as
 > hens teeth.

 > Gene

 > ----- Original Message -----
 > From: "Mark Rabiner" <mark at rabinergroup.com>
 > To: "Leica Users Group" <lug at leica-users.org>
 > Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2011 12:37:54 AM GMT -06:00 US/Canada Central
 > Subject: Re: [Leica] Thinking about a D700 or D7000

 > I got my D700 nine months ago at B&H where I've got most my gear for 30
 > years. I've never seen them out of stock on it.
 > I recommend picking a major supplier and sticking with it.
 > That way they know you.
 > If you ever get a blooper you can then take it back. Because they 
know you
 > are a regular customer and they value your business.
 > For awhile CAMERA WORLD in Portland Oregon got most my photographer 
friends
 > attention but when they were bought out we were back getting our 
stuff from
 > the other coast at B&H again. But now I'm here and I'm face to face with
 > those guys. A much better way to do biz if you ask me.
 > --
 > Mark R.



 > From: Gene duprey <grduprey at mchsi.com>
 > Reply-To: Leica Users Group <lug at leica-users.org>
 > Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2011 00:22:41 -0500 (CDT)
 > To: Leica Users Group <lug at leica-users.org>
 > Subject: Re: [Leica] Thinking about a D700 or D7000
 >
 > Peter,
 >
 > I have also looked into the D700, which seems to be unfortunately very
 > hard to
 > find in dealers shelves, outside of the occasional demo.  My big 
gripe is
 > the
 > loud mirror noise, seems they save some bucks by using the low end 
mirror
 > box
 > mechanicals over the quieter high end parts.  It sounds like several 
mouse
 > traps going off at once, IMHO.  Outside of that I like the cameras
 > performance.  As to the D7000, I have not looked at it since I am only
 > interested in a FF body.  I have looked at the Sony A900 & A850 FF 
bodies,
 > and
 > while quieter than the D700, they are still noisier than my R8DMR.  But
 > they
 > do offer quite a few interesting features.
 >
 > Gene
 >
 > ----- Original Message -----
 > From: "Peter Klein" <pklein at threshinc.com>
 > To: "lug" <lug at leica-users.org>
 > Sent: Friday, August 12, 2011 11:31:02 PM GMT -06:00 US/Canada Central
 > Subject: [Leica] Thinking about a D700 or D7000
 >
 > Today I was at Glazer's in Seattle, and had a chance to handle two
 > cameras that interest me--the Nikon D700 and D7000.  I've long had a bit
 > of D700-lust, as it is one of the best available-dark cameras out there.
 > I liked the big viewfinder of the D700 But after hefting them both, I
 > looked at the D700 and thought, "would you really carry that around
 > much?" Hmm--maybe not. Still, the ability to shoot at ISO 3200 like I
 > shoot the M8 at 800 is very tempting.
 >
 > On the other hand, the D7000 seems like a "Goldilocks" camera--a lot
 > about it is "just right." It felt good in my hands. The viewfinder is
 > not as spacious as the D700, but quite usable. The new sensor (also in
 > the Pentax K5) has previously unheard-of performance (for an APS-C
 > sensor) in both dynamic range and low light ability. There are buttons
 > for the commonly-used functions. The shutter is relatively quiet (the
 > D700 is MUCH louder). Dpreview and DXOMark comparisons indicate it might
 > have a 1-stop low-light advantage over the M8, compared to the D700's 2
 > stops or more. But that's lab tests.  How about in real life?
 >
 > So...  I would be interested in anyone's experience with the D700 and/or
 > D7000--particularly those who can compare it to the M8 or M9.  I know
 > the difference between an SLR and a rangefinder. I'm most interested in
 > image quality, handling, and real-world available-dark performance. K5
 > users are welcome to chime in, too.
 >
 > --Peter
 >
 > _______________________________________________
 > Leica Users Group.
 > See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information
 >
 > _______________________________________________
 > Leica Users Group.
 > See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information



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Replies: Reply from mark at rabinergroup.com (Mark Rabiner) ([Leica] D700 or D7000)