Archived posting to the Leica Users Group, 2011/03/12

[Author Prev] [Author Next] [Thread Prev] [Thread Next] [Author Index] [Topic Index] [Home] [Search]

Subject: [Leica] IMGS: check out Keith Wessel's photographs
From: frank.dernie at (FRANK DERNIE)
Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2011 10:59:26 +0000 (GMT)
References: <> <> <> <> <>

Hi George,
I quite agree with you on everything you write, except the taxpayer detail.
I fully endorse the need of public employment and the likelihood of 
these services resulting in worse services for more money (and probably a 
of whoever is in power getting rich).
I absolutely support taxpayers needing to pay for the services they demand.
OTOH before money can be spent somebody, somewhere has to earn it, then pay 
net tax on it.
My knowledge of the US tax system and the difference between federal and 
revenues is non-existent, so maybe what I wrote about taxpayers is not true 
you, but if one imagines the tax being put into a big pot, from which 
public must be paid, it does not really matter whether the tax is collected 
locally or nationally the fact is that sales tax, income tax and property 
all effectively go into the same pot, in varying proportions, and public 
employees are entirely paid out of it. They are not net tax payers to my way 
looking at it.
I do not by this mean to belittle their efforts or underestimate the 
of what they do. What I do mean is that however much we want the service 
provide we can not have it if our economy does not have a significant number 
people in genuine wealth creating employment who are net tax contributors.
Who are net contributors, from this perspective?
Artists, such as yourself, who create from almost nothing valuable art which 
people pay for.
Anybody who takes a lump of clay and makes a brick, anybody who takes a 
sheet of 
steel and makes a washing machine, anybody who takes a pile of bricks and 
a house. The payment received for all these efforts is taxed and is "new" 
going into the tax pot. It is this "new" money that allows us to pay for 
things, not the money which circulates into and out of the tax pot. This 
circulation keeps people in work but is unsustainable without the "new" 
since the money will dry up otherwise.
If nobody is making "new" money nobody can spend it. However much we thing 
"need" something.

----- Original Message ----
From: George Lottermoser <imagist3 at>
To: Leica Users Group <lug at>
Sent: Friday, 11 March, 2011 20:58:51
Subject: Re: [Leica] IMGS: check out Keith Wessel's photographs

On Mar 11, 2011, at 2:28 PM, FRANK DERNIE wrote:

> George, public employees are -not- net tax payers since the tax they 
> nominally 

> pay goes straight into their next pay packet, topped up by other real 
> taxpayers 
> contributions. If a public employee was directly paid his after tax income 
> and 

> paid no tax, or is paid his nominal income and pays the tax the end effect 
> is 
> the same.
> All public employees cost taxpayers something I am afraid.
> The arithmetic is straightforward.

Frank, let us try and frame this within the larger systemic reality.
Public services cost taxpayers $$.
In order to provide those services we must hire employees, rent offices, 
purchase equipment, etc.
State public employees also "really" pay federal income taxes;
they "really" pay sales taxes, gas taxes, and all other taxes;
and yes to some degree they also pay a portion of their own salaries in 
In in all cases they qualify as "real tax payers.
They also circulate their $$ within the economy.

Now let us drop all pretense around public service "employees" and simply 
get to 
the heart of the matter.
Some people appreciate the services provided by a well regulated government.
This would include the mass of people who cannot afford to purchase those 
services on their own.
Other people believe that all services should be privatized.
This would mostly be people who can afford to purchase any and everything 
Yet others believe even more services should be provided by their government.
This would include the absolute bottom in terms of income and resources.
And all others believe in one or another proportion between public and 
according to what they need and/or want in life.
If you can afford a private school education you probably resent supporting 
public education.
and the list could go on and on.

Whether the state hires employees to provide services to the citizenry
or hires private contractors to provide the same services the services will 
to be paid for.

With out any doubt
if we privatize everything
those business will run to earn the largest possible profits for their CEO's 
How does that hold down costs?
This is what we see with the insurance companies.

Until people are willing to actually pay a reasonable wage to the people
who grow, pick, cook, serve, deliver their food to the super market,
clean their homes, pickup their trash, build, maintain and plow their roads,
deliver their mail, stand at their store's cash registers, teach or provide 
for their children
and on and on - in my opinion - we need to provide a modicum
of safety, health and education to these, our servants.

George Lottermoser 
george at

Leica Users Group.
See for more information

Replies: Reply from imagist3 at (George Lottermoser) ([Leica] IMGS: check out Keith Wessel's photographs)
In reply to: Message from imagist3 at (George Lottermoser) ([Leica] IMGS: check out Keith Wessel's photographs)
Message from shino at (Rei Shinozuka) ([Leica] IMGS: check out Keith Wessel's photographs)
Message from imagist3 at (George Lottermoser) ([Leica] IMGS: check out Keith Wessel's photographs)
Message from frank.dernie at (FRANK DERNIE) ([Leica] IMGS: check out Keith Wessel's photographs)
Message from imagist3 at (George Lottermoser) ([Leica] IMGS: check out Keith Wessel's photographs)