[Leica] New 35/1.4 ASPH?

[passaro.vince at gmail.com (Vince Passaro)]

Mark --

I wasn't rappping Leica at all, and I am probably less interested in bokeh
than anyone on the list; I think it's the microbrewery-zone of photography,
totally overrated, inclined toward the sweet and pretty. Its qualities
certainly do not determine a good photograph. In short, I don't give a crap
about bokeh.

My point was meant to be a larger aesthetic one, to the effect that we might
have crossed some line technologically where the physical technical
capacities of the art form (photography in this case, but it has happened in
many ways in other forms as well) now exceed the intention of the artist and
the generally accepted intentions of artists traditionally. Which is why I
suggested that for intimate scenes and street scenes I suspect I would like
these lenses better in black and white: this is an argument in favor of the
gesture that evokes the whole; in favor of a little bit of abstraction over
the hyper-perfect rendition.  You are practical: you want the best tool
available, and these certainly are the best and I wouldn't argue that for a
second. I love sharpness in a photograph; but I'm accustomed to b&w film
mainly... And as I noted, when taking a wider view these lenses to me eye
are at their very best. But to see a street scene in color produced by an M9
(or any other really top rate digital camera)  in combination with an ASPH
lens is to see a photograph that is now working outside its seemingly
intended genre. Part of photography's magic for me has always resided in
its seeing as we see, only a little better, or I should say, smarter, which
is to say, with a frame; and permanently instead of passingly.  But the way
these lenses see the world is no longer evocative of how we see it and so
the technology borders on the sentimental, if misapplied (broadly put, not
how things are but how we wish them to be, in this case, perfectly outlined
and detailed); which is why I said 'pornographic', for pornography is
usually a vulgar sentimentalizing of the purely visual in the erotic.

I'm sorry to anser at such length but answering is my way of thinking.

V



On Mon, Mar 8, 2010 at 4:31 AM, Mark Rabiner <mark at rabinergroup.com> 
wrote:

> > The current Summilux ASPH does do edges very hard, as Vince says. The
> > way to get around that is not to sharpen at all in post-processing.  Or
> > sometimes use another lens.
> >
> > The focus shift is real.  I used to worry about it more until Henning
> > advised me to ignore it. Now I will still compensate slightly at f/2.8-4
> > if I can, but if I can't, I just focus on the closest thing I want in
> > the focus zone and shoot anyway, and it's usually fine.  For five grand,
> > I can continue to do that.
> >
> > As to "sharpness as porn," it's kind of like Adam and Eve eating the
> > apple. Once you've seen how sharp things can be, feel naked without it.
> > You always want it.  Or you think you do. Often, I prefer a more classic
> > rendering.  So I tell myself: "Self, shoot with your other lenses
> > sometimes. They're sharp enough. Mandler and Kobashi know the old magic."
> >
> > Just for fun, here are two galleries, one with the Summilux ASPH, one
> > with the Nokton. Same place, same lighting, even some of the same people.
> >
> > 35/1.4 Summilux ASPH:
> > http://gallery.leica-users.org/v/pklein/friends/Rosa90/
> > CV 35/1.2
> > http://gallery.leica-users.org/v/pklein/friends/NewYear2010/
> >
> > --Peter
> >
> > Vince wrote:
> >>
> >> The ASPH lenses in combo with the M8 and M9, which many luggers use,
> >> sometimes border on the-almost-too-sharp to my eye.  Except in the
> widest
> >> (big landscape/seascape) views they can lack subtlety -- there is a
> >> tendency
> >> for the more intimate pictures to look as if they were processed by an
> ad
> >> agency for placement in Time. (I keep thinking they would look
> >> astounding in
> >> black and white however; perhaps Luis will fill that gap now that he's
> >> gallavanting around with his M8.... ) The pictures these newer lenses
> take
> >> of clouds and the sky's infinitely various colors are amazing -- but
> those
> >> are soft things. The hard edges of the world seem with these lenses to
> be
> >> harder even than they are: as in cinema and other art forms, there's a
> >> possibility we've reached the natural end of the mimetic impulse in art,
> a
> >> 10,000 year progression -- in that we can now do reality better than
> >> reality
> >> can do itself. Which makes the experience just a little pornographic.
> >>
> >> Just some Sunday ruminations, with fleisch all too well sitzed.
> >>
>
>
> I mainly don't go along with the ASPH's being too sharp and edgy and bad
> Bokeh kind of thing. Can a lens be to good really? I think hand holding and
> fast films  and bad technique (too slow shutter speeds and missed focus and
> not diluted enough solvent developers)*neutralize any overly hard edge the
> glass might have it it had it and I don't think it does. I think if it did
> it would be bad lens design. And the vibe I get from Leica, Peter and
> Vince,
> and I went there and checked it out and saw it and talked to the people and
> touched everything and took pictures. ... And the vibe I get from Leica and
> I've read all kind of big fat books about it; is that they know what the
> heck they are doing when it comes to designing a lens. That's what they DO
> KNOW.  When you're their on the tour they call themselves in so many terms
> "a lens making company" I hope the CEO agrees with the tour guides but it
> all makes sense to me.
> These people have forgotten more about lens design than we're ever going to
> totally know.
> For people who already had a set of glass when the ASPH's came out than
> this
> "too sharp bad Bokeh" rap meant their glass was still ok. As if it wasn't
> ok
> in the first place. As if there was a law saying they had to trade it all
> in
> for the newest cutting edge stuff or they'd die.
> I'm looking for the sharpest and highest contrast lens I can possibly find
> as is any commercial photographer or fine art photographer or PJ with half
> a
> clue as what they were doing. The good news is in most cases we're going to
> get it anyway. Its getting hard to find a poorly designed lens. The good
> news is also that its not that complicated if you have the bucks the best
> lens your going to get is this latest offering from Leica of the latest
> generation of their glass design technology. They have not gone too far.
> Their glass is not "too sharp"  or "harsh" now. They are not stupid.
>
> [Rabs]
> Mark William Rabiner
>
> * and bad enlarger glass or old or dirty
> Out of alignment enlargers;
> Bad scanning, Photoshopping and printing.
>
>
>
>
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