Archived posting to the Leica Users Group, 2009/01/28

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Subject: [Leica] Re: Fake Leicas - again
From: len-001 at verizon.net (Leonard Taupier)
Date: Wed Jan 28 09:51:27 2009
References: <200901281207.n0SC6f2J051027@server1.waverley.reid.org> <1BE4EFA9-854D-47FB-90E7-4C3620CEE401@optonline.net>

Hi Larry,

I think we have to differentiate between a repair, an upgrade, a  
fraud and then a counterfeit.

In your case the IIIc is a repair or a rebuild to a common camera.  
There is no intent to deceive at all. It should not detract from it's  
value, at least not in this century.

Leica did many upgrades. A common upgrade was to add a rangefinder to  
a Model I making it a model II. The original Ser.No is added to the  
top plate. The model I is worth much more then the model II,  
especially with a low serial number. However the upgraded II is  
increased in value if the Ser No. is very low, like only 4 digits. It  
can double or triple the value of the now model II.

As far as the innards of same series Leicas, there may be ways to  
tell the difference in parts if genuine Leica. There are experts that  
are very knowledgeable in this area and may be able to tell the  
difference. But it is difficult and can raise debates amongst experts  
even.

On a true collectible as you referred to, if the top is battered and  
the chassis pristine, it would certainly raise eyebrows and certainly  
greatly reduce the value of the camera, even if fully Leica. It would  
be treated as a repair, non original.

A common fraud is to repaint bodies of older cameras and then scuff  
them up to make them look old. Or to add false nomenclature to a  
common body. These are the easiest for an expert to detect but  
difficult for the uninformed.

And then there are flat out counterfeits, making a Leica from a  
different camera maker. These are easy to spot by the informed, not  
necessarily experts.

Len


On Jan 28, 2009, at 11:56 AM, Lawrence Zeitlin wrote:

> Back to the topic of fake Leicas.
>
> Apart from the serial number on the top plate, are there any  
> internal marks or numbers which will identify one Leica in the same  
> series from another? My favorite pocket Leica is a FrankenLeica  
> IIIc which was assembled from the components of three defunct  
> cameras. The top plate and range finder are from one camera, the  
> body extrusion from another, and the internal mechanism from a  
> third. The camera works fine. If the top plate of a battered  
> KreigsMarine or Luftwaffe camera were attached to a pristine same  
> era IIIc chassis, could it be told as a fraud?
>
> No evil plans, just curious.
>
> Larry Z
>
>
> On Jan 13, 2009, at 1:01 PM, Leonard wrote:
> This is where it becomes very difficult to spot a fake. The camera
> has all the details it's a real Leica II. It most likely is. If
> original, the engraving and insignia can transform a common $400
> Leica II into a collectible worth thousands of dollars.
>
> The k version Leica IIIc is more common but valuable and is a target
> for counterfeiters. Here a $300 IIIc can become a $5000 collectible
> if done right.
>
> Thanks for the link, Peter.
> Len
>
>
> On Jan 13, 2009, at 7:20 AM, Peter Dzwig wrote:
>
> For an interesting discussion on Nazi engravings and a mystery
> Leica see:
>
> http://www.cameraquest.com/kriegsma.htm
>
> I wonder if Steve ever found anything more. Steve?
>
> ...and for a low temperature IIIc that may have been a Luftwaffe
> camera see:
>
> http://www.cameraquest.com/leica_iiic_k_gray.htm
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Leica Users Group.
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In reply to: Message from lrzeitlin at optonline.net (Lawrence Zeitlin) ([Leica] Re: Fake Leicas - again)