Archived posting to the Leica Users Group, 2008/12/14

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Subject: [Leica] M8 upgrade - 90 Cron APO focusing problems now Question????
From: mark at rabinergroup.com (Mark Rabiner)
Date: Sun Dec 14 21:44:11 2008

My 90 SA is such a great performer I open the refrigerator door and the
light comes on and it instantly it does 20 minutes.


Songs, Jokes, impressions.
A little soft shoe. A little slight of hand.

A SDJ joke.

Takes great pictures too!



mark@rabinergroup.com
Mark William Rabiner



> From: Leonard Taupier <len-001@verizon.net>
> Reply-To: Leica Users Group <lug@leica-users.org>
> Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2008 21:13:57 -0500
> To: Leica Users Group <lug@leica-users.org>
> Subject: Re: [Leica] M8 upgrade - 90 Cron APO focusing problems now
> Question????
> 
> Marty,
> 
> Of course. The lens doesn't know what body it's on. Sorry for the
> incorrect wording here. I know what focus shift is and what causes
> it. The two lenses that I have that have a definite focus shift are
> the Noctilux and the 75mm Summilux. I can see the plane of sharp
> focus inch back as I stop down the lens. Your f1 and f5.6 performance
> are exactly the way my Noctilux acted before I had it shimmed by DAG.
> Now it is slightly front focused at f1 (but still acceptable) and
> stays in focus albeit more to the rear from f2.0 to 4.0. As you say
> at f5.6 the DOF catches up.
> 
> The 8 lenses that don't focus shift will focus more behind the point
> I focus the rangefinder to on the M8s then on the film cameras. But
> these 8 lenses are still acceptably within what I call a sharp focus
> area. I have 19 Leica M lenses and perhaps 10 leica LTM lenses I use
> on the M8. Of these 29 lenses only 3 gave me a problem. However I'm
> also convinced that Leica did not align the M8 rangefinder to account
> for the difference in film and sensor thickness. For all I know they
> knew about the differences but didn't change the alignment for fear
> of having a bigger problem. All I know is my leica lenses focus more
> behind where I focus on the M8.
> 
> Cheers,
> Len
> 
> 
> On Dec 13, 2008, at 7:34 PM, Marty Deveney wrote:
> 
>> 
>>> But every Leica lens I have tested has a focus shift when going
>>> from film to digital.
>> 
>> This is not focus shift.  This is a difference in body-to-lens
>> calibration.
>> 
>> There are a few interrelated issues here.  Focus on a rangefinder
>> works by mechanical linkages.  The camera focuses correctly as long
>> as a certain level of mechanical precision is achieved and
>> individual lenses and bodies are within spec.
>> 
>> Focus shift is a property of lenses caused by uncontrolled
>> spherical aberration - it has nothing to do with camera bodies.
>> Think of depth of field as a theoretical band of acceptable
>> sharpness in space that varies in width and with distance from the
>> film or sensor plane as you stop down. Acceptable sharpness is
>> related to the circle of confusion concept, which ultimately is
>> also linked to human visual acuity, so whether something is "sharp"
>> or "in focus" is ultimately also linked to your own eyesight.
>> 
>> At close range and wide open the focus point of fast RF lenses is
>> almost always ever-so-slightly in front or behind the point at
>> which you focus - if the lens is properly adjusted.  If the lens or
>> body are poorly adjusted the result in softness, but this is 'out
>> of specification collimation', not 'focus shift'.  As you stop down
>> the focus point shifts away or towards the film or sensor plane
>> (depending on the lens' design).  You run into problems when this
>> shift is greater than the increase in depth-of-field. I haven't
>> tested the 90/2 AA extensively, but the f1 Noctilux, for example,
>> focuses close to correctly at f1, but depth-of-field doesn't catch
>> up with focus shift until f5.6. This is especially apparent on the
>> M8. The answer for me is simple - use the Nocti on the M8 at only
>> f1 or f5.6 or larger.
>> 
>> Why does digital make it worse?  Remember that focus shift works
>> backwards aswell as forwards.  Even the thinnest films have an
>> emulsion that is ~120 micrometres thick or so.  When the virtual
>> image shifts, you have some leeway for movement since the image
>> will appear sharp if the image is in focus anywhere in the
>> emulsion.  Digital sensors have no depth and the photosites have a
>> single point at which focus must be accurate, which is almost a
>> theoretical plane is space although in practice it has some depth,
>> though this is only a few nanometres.
>> 
>> Some of Len's lenses do display focus shift, but having them
>> calibrated to his M8 will help enormously, particularly with the
>> 50/1.4 asph which has negligible focus shift courtesy of its design
>> which includes an aspherical element _and_ a floating element.
>> These minimise spherical aberration and therefore focus shift.  Of
>> course some of the others will display focus shift, but having them
>> calibrated to the body with make sure that they are within spec
>> wide open, which has nothing to do with focus shift.
>> 
>> Howard's 90/AA may be displaying a lack of calibration, displaying
>> some focus shift - since its design is very simple and the lens is
>> not known to be a great performer at short distances anyway.  I
>> suggest, if you want to try to make it work, to send the body _and_
>> the lens to a competent repair person for matching and then very
>> carefully testing what is happening afterwards to check for focus
>> shift.  If this sounds like too much trouble, you could trade your
>> 90/2 AA for the 75/2 AA, which has a floating element and an
>> asperical element which do a much better job of controlling
>> residual aberrations than the 90/2 AA design does.  Hoppy's 75/2 AA
>> worked perfectly on five or six M8s that were present at the
>> Melbourne LuG get-together and close-up focus was _much_ easier to
>> nail than with my 75/1.4.
>> 
>> Marty
>> 
>> Gallery: http://gallery.leica-users.org/v/freakscene
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
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>> 
>> 
>> 
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> 
> 
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In reply to: Message from len-001 at verizon.net (Leonard Taupier) ([Leica] M8 upgrade - 90 Cron APO focusing problems now Question????)