Archived posting to the Leica Users Group, 2007/08/22

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Subject: [Leica] I can't print my petunias!!
From: don.dory at (Don Dory)
Date: Wed Aug 22 19:24:39 2007
References: <> <> <001401c7e3a4$b3349d60$6501a8c0@asus930> <> <000c01c7e448$fc9d8b70$6501a8c0@asus930> <> <000501c7e45c$0881ffd0$6501a8c0@asus930>

Greetings Hoppy,
The RAW files I pull from the M8 cover a very broad color gamut and I have
set up Lightroom to show the files in ProPhotoRGB.  You are correct that
currently no printer can output the whole color space.  However, I can
choose how to emulate what I like as far as color when you go into your
print dialogue.  sRGB is very deficient in the reds so I can put up the
original color space next to the sRGB and tweak the sRGB to approximate the
relationships between colors.  Many times you can maintain the feel of an
image by juggling the colors even if the colors are not the same.  It is an
art that print makers have been performing ever since media has been
translated say from drawing to stained glass or from original print to
published printed images.

On 8/21/07, G Hopkinson <> wrote:
> Thanks Don. A local Epson dealer is supposed to be providing a workshop
> for some local enthusiasts. I'll be sure to pick his brain.
> Agreed on the Frontiers at sRGB and I really love the prints from my 3800.
> Some reading since my initial reply supports that the sensor will output a
> bigger gamut (and of course there is a great deal of
> conversion going on to get to human vision concepts). As I understand it
> the colour space conversion occurs within the RAW converter
> and ACR in fact very happy to deal with the camera output. Still comes out
> within Adobe RGB at best though, surely? Unless the RAW
> conversion gets more sophisticated in the future? Another great reason to
> capture and preserve in the RAW.
> That ProPhotoRGB is huge no doubt, but I'm thinking not much point
> covering colours that human vision cannot even detect. Without
> accurate soft-proofing ability you are back to subjective judgement of the
> prints, of course. Whatever works for each printmaker.
> Well that's enough techno-geeking for me this thread before someone like
> Ted gets grumpy with me. I need to focus back where I am
> this AM here, which is scanning Neopan processed in dilute XTOL, pictures
> made with my new M3, Woohoo!
> Cheers
> Hoppy
> Still happily swimming against the tide; waving not drowning.
> -----Original Message-----
> Subject: Re: [Leica] I can't print my petunias!!
> Hoppy,
> I don't have it with me as I only see it at PMA or at Photokina but Epson
> shows the color space that their various printers will print but for the
> most part the new Epson 3800 prints the largest color space with the
> exception of black dMax that HP has with their printers(small difference).
> My experience is that my R800 and the 7800 I use print fairly close to
> what
> I see on screen with my Samsung monitor.
> As to sensors, if you shoot in RAW then there is no processing so the
> output
> can be much larger than AdobeRGB; this has been my experience.  When I use
> a
> Frontier to print the conversion to sRGB is very painful especially in the
> reds.  Regaining proper skin tone after the conversion is somewhat
> difficult.
> If you are asking what I think you are asking, then sRGB is completely
> contained within AdobeRGB which is completely contained within
> ProPhotoRGB.
> The trick is as Tina suggests, to know where the clipping will occur and
> make a compromise solution that renders the intent if not the reality of
> the
> colors.
> On 8/21/07, G Hopkinson <> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [mailto:
> >] On Behalf Of
> > Tina Manley
> > Sent: Wednesday, 22 August 2007 00:35
> > To: Leica Users Group
> > Subject: RE: [Leica] I can't print my petunias!!
> >
> > At 11:38 PM 8/20/2007, you wrote:
> > >Don, his monitor won't show that colour space though, and that's
> > >where the printing decisions are made. Only the very best of the
> > >Eizo's will show 96% of Adobe RGB. I'm surprised regarding the
> > >printer substantially showing that colour space though???? If you're
> > >making editing decisions in ProPhoto RGB you risk significant
> > >remapping, surely?
> > >My 3800 and 800 both custom profiled and soft-proof beautifully, but
> > >certainly won't reproduce the very high end blues. This is less
> > >apparent with greens for me. I'd be very interested if you have some
> > >references for that Epson colour space capability.
> > >
> > >Worthy of a thread, I think.
> > >
> > >Cheers
> > >Hoppy
> >
> >
> > Hoppy -
> >
> > I agree, it's worthy of a thread - and several books!  It's my
> > understanding that the input devices - cameras and scanners - can
> > capture more colors than can be displayed or printed by the output
> > devices - monitors and printers.  It's probably a good idea to use
> > the widest color space you can, in this case, ProPhoto RGB, as long
> > as you know that some colors will be out of gamut and can determine
> > which rendering intent is the best one to use to specify which colors
> > will replace the ones that are out of gamut.  Bruce Fraser recommends
> > using relative colorimetric most of the time since it preserves more
> > of the original colors.  Relative colorimetric matches the white of
> > the source to the white of the destination since our eyes adapt the
> > other colors to the way we see white.  It keeps the in gamut colors
> > the same and clips the out of gamut colors.  Perceptual changes all
> > of the colors so the relationship of the colors to each other remain
> > the same but all colors fit into the gamut.  When you get into very
> > saturated or vivid colors the rendering intent can make a big
> > difference.  I started researching color management when I ran into
> > problems with this photo:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > The color of the cosmos is totally out of gamut.  To my eyes, it
> > prints best with relative colorimetric but the print doesn't begin to
> > match the colors that I see on the monitor.  My monitor is an Eizo
> > profiled with Gretag Macbeth.  I'm printing on an Epson 4800 using
> > ImagePrint profiles.  There is nothing wrong with the color of the
> > print - it probably is a closer match to what the flower actually
> > looked like. (Maybe this is a Leica M8 magenta issue ;-)) Relative
> > colorimetric replaces the out of gamut reddish purple with a bluish
> > purple.  I've tried using other color spaces and did work for awhile
> > with just Adobe RGB but ProPhoto RGB does include more colors that
> > can be seen on the monitor and printed than Adobe RGB does.  As long
> > as you know that it also contains colors that can't be seen or
> > printed and choose the rendering intent that will give you the
> > closest results, it's probably the best space to use for everything
> > except the web.  Bruce Fraser says that Adobe Camera Raw uses
> > ProPhoto RGB to do its processing.  I'm only about half-way through
> > his Real World Color Management book but I've used it as a reference
> > book to answer a lot of my color mangement questions.
> >
> > Tina
> >
> > Tina Manley
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi Tina, I'm pleased that you are involved and interested there, too. I
> > know that you have that Eizo and am quite jealous. Not as
> > much as of that recent trip, though. I have read good things regarding
> > Bruce Fraser's book as well. I need to put it on my list.
> > Currently I am devouring "Geometry of Design" and "The Power of Limits",
> > both dealing with proportional harmonies and composition.
> > Regarding colour spaces for your capture devices, your M8 and my Nikon
> > scanner will both output within Adobe RGB as their broadest
> > colour space, yes? I don't know at all what their sensors are capable of
> > detecting, but what comes out is within Adobe RGB (or
> > sRGB), is it not? Maybe I understand that poorly. That also disregards
> the
> > processing occurring within each device and your RAW
> > converter etc for the purposes of this discussion.
> > Next step is your Eizo, almost all of Adobe RGB.
> >
> > I think that your comments on rendering intent are at the heart of what
> > your printer will output.
> > I was trying to say that you can't judge the result if monitor can't
> > display all of the colours. So you are losing me there. I
> > thought that the monitor was the device in the chain with the broadest
> > range of colours (disregarding luminance for now). I thought
> > that the printer reproduced less of those colours than the monitor.
> > I hope that Don might come back with more information about that colour
> > space capability of the best Epsons.
> > Still the final word is what the prints look like, as you say.
> >
> > Cheers
> > Hoppy
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Leica Users Group.
> > See for more information
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Leica Users Group.
> > See for more information
> >
> --
> Don
> _______________________________________________
> Leica Users Group.
> See for more information
> _______________________________________________
> Leica Users Group.
> See for more information


In reply to: Message from pklein at (Peter Klein) ([Leica] I can't print my petunias!!)
Message from don.dory at (Don Dory) ([Leica] I can't print my petunias!!)
Message from hoppyman at (G Hopkinson) ([Leica] I can't print my petunias!!)
Message from images at (Tina Manley) ([Leica] I can't print my petunias!!)
Message from hoppyman at (G Hopkinson) ([Leica] I can't print my petunias!!)
Message from don.dory at (Don Dory) ([Leica] I can't print my petunias!!)
Message from hoppyman at (G Hopkinson) ([Leica] I can't print my petunias!!)