Archived posting to the Leica Users Group, 2006/10/26

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Subject: [Leica] M8 and the Future
From: bd at bdcolenphoto.com (B. D. Colen)
Date: Thu Oct 26 16:51:43 2006

It's going to be interesting to see how things play out - one thing is clear
- it certainly looks like an M, and everyone who's handled it says it
handles like an M. Ted Grant was here over the weekend and said that picking
it up and shooting with it was like picking up any other M, but for the
slightly smoother skin.


On 10/26/06 6:44 PM, "G Hopkinson" <hoppyman@bigpond.net.au> wrote:

> Thanks B.D. It seems it may have been the Reid reviews site which requires 
> a
> subscription.
> Perhaps someone who has access can comment on whether they have examples 
> from
> a production camera, which seems unlikely? Perhaps
> they have not heeded Leica's request that preproduction pics not be posted?
> I understand what you are saying regarding those features that may be
> important to pro's.
> I'm certainly not one of those. I rue that extension factor, whilst I do
> understand its genesis. Still, better than 1.5 or more, I
> would think, as far as operation with existing lenses. To be fair, I'd 
> have to
> acknowledge that it needn't be an issue for every
> lens except for the 28. That is there is an equivalent or near equivalent 
> for
> most, regarding size, performance, cost.
> Cheers
> Hoppy
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: lug-bounces+hoppyman=bigpond.net.au@leica-users.org
> [mailto:lug-bounces+hoppyman=bigpond.net.au@leica-users.org] On Behalf Of
> B. D. Colen
> Sent: Friday, 27 October 2006 07:51
> To: Leica Users Group
> Subject: Re: [Leica] M8 and the Future
> 
> It was a subscription-only site someone pointed me to - and let me into -
> with an extremely extensive, two-part review by someone who is clearly an M
> enthusiast, but noted the short comings. I don't have it book-marked, but 
> am
> trying to get the name of it.
> 
> As to the question of whether I think it will be a pro or an 'am' camera -
> no, I don't think many will sell to working pros, although some undoubtedly
> will. But we agree that most sales will be to enthusiasts. I think that if
> it was weather sealed, and had really good high iso performance, even with
> the 1.3 crop factor it would have a much bigger pro market.
> 
> 
> On 10/26/06 5:39 PM, "G Hopkinson" <hoppyman@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
> 
>> B.D., I follow your observations on this and would like to add some 
>> questions
>> and comments. 
>> Where are the review images located that you have used to compare the high
>> ISO
>> performance?
>> I have only read reviews thus far based on pre-production examples. Those
>> reviewers, quite properly, have refrained from posting
>> images, commenting that the firmware is not the commercial release.
>> Do you consider that pros will be the most significant market? I would 
>> have
>> thought that they would sell in greater quantity to
>> amateur enthusiasts, notwithstanding that a few pros may well buy them 
>> too.
>> Finally I think that you have identified the most significant factor that 
>> may
>> disappoint current M owners, being the 1.33 extension
>> factor (as christened by Leica). For wide users, it means that you must 
>> pay
>> for and use a much bulkier 21mm or the new Tri design to
>> approximate the FOV of the lovely 28's.
>> Cheers
>> Hoppy
>> 
>> l Message-----
>> From: lug-bounces+hoppyman=bigpond.net.au@leica-users.org
>> [mailto:lug-bounces+hoppyman=bigpond.net.au@leica-users.org] On Behalf Of
>> B. D. Colen
>> Sent: Friday, 27 October 2006 01:03
>> To: Leica Users Group
>> Subject: Re: [Leica] M8 and the Future
>> 
>> Not a point, Adam - merely an observation. The question is whether the
>> demand, and the margin, will make up for the loss of demand and margin for
>> film cameras. Remember that the company has been skittering on the edge of
>> the abyss based on film camera sales. Doing better than barely surviving
>> requires not only that the digital cameras sell well, but that they sell 
>> so
>> well that the loss of film cameras isn't felt. (And one has to assume that
>> there have been fairly large design and start -up costs associated with 
>> this
>> camera, costs that are absent from the film camera cost equation/)
>> 
>> Also, from the review images I've seen, there is not a hint that the 
>> camera
>> produces images better than film at high isos - and its high iso images do
>> not begin to touch those produced by the Canon 5D.
>> 
>> I'd suggest that the M8 clearly has three things going for it, which will
>> make it appeal to the die-hard M base - It is clearly an extremely solidly
>> built, very M-like, rangefinder digital. Beyond that, from a 
>> pro-standpoint,
>> it's mostly downhill - no real low-speed iso (160 is the lowest, 
>> apparently
>> because Leica believes that the lower the starting iso, the harder it is 
>> to
>> control noise at the high end of the scale); comparative very weak high 
>> iso
>> performance; no weather or dust sealing; not full-frame, so the fabulous M
>> lenses can't be used at their original focal lengths; odd and limited iso
>> scale. All offered at a price that's $1500 higher than a film M for a 
>> camera
>> that simply will not have anything like the life expectancy of a film M.
>> 
>> But - with all that said, it's an M-like rangefinder that takes M lenses -
>> and there's a great deal to be said for that.
>> 
>> B. D. 
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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In reply to: Message from hoppyman at bigpond.net.au (G Hopkinson) ([Leica] M8 and the Future)