Archived posting to the Leica Users Group, 2003/12/05

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Subject: Re: [Leica] 35mm color vs. the tyranny of the masses
From: Mark Rabiner <mark@rabinergroup.com>
Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 18:19:43 -0800
References: <E99B16C4-26E7-11D8-9384-0003938C439E@btinternet.com> <11FDD418-26EF-11D8-90AA-003065D6E648@umich.edu> <DB6E1160-26F5-11D8-B6ED-000A958F513A@jphotog.com> <B8F767AC-2717-11D8-90AA-003065D6E648@umich.edu> <3FD08DFA.9E552729@rabinergroup.com> <30D153D2-2732-11D8-B6ED-000A958F513A@jphotog.com>

Eric Welch wrote:
> 
> No, there are not ten or eleven zones. Zones are just a description of
> a certain specific range of tones. Go back and read the Zone system
> again. It's not an absolute process. Especially read something by
> Ansel's assistant John Sexton. With his special processing techniques,
> such as using TMax developer 1:9 or 1:15 and very long processing
> times, he can get way more range of light intensity on film in
> printable densities. In one power plant he has a photo that shows a
> beautiful range of tones and the highlights are so under control you
> can actually the the form if the filament in the light bulbs. That's
> way more than the traditional 12 zones that most Zone System
> Practitioners will allow for.
> 
> It's not voodoo, it's sensitometry.
> 

Sexton would need to be an expert in ultra low dilutions and developing
agents as he develops his negs with continual agitation (roller) a
practice which would have his famous mentor Ansel rolling continuously
in one direction in his grave! 
But no ones going to argue with his prints.

Yes I'm a aware of all  that stuff the - Windich Catechol formula claims
15 stops and there are a whole category of exotic ultra low contrast
developers which get its main use in getting normal results from high
contrast ultra thin emulsion films. Tech Pan is renamed High Contrast
Copy Film which was designed for making title slides for slide shows. 

Ultra low dilutions and exotic highly toxic developing agents stretch
the range of a neg way past a point where the neg was designed to
operate. Kodak and Ilford did not test Tri X  or TMY in such a treatment
to make sure you could get 15 stops with it I'll be willing to bet. If
you can get such results it's a quirky deal. Some films can respond that
way. Some will not. 

And  Such a film/developer combination is not IDEAL for normal use at all.
I'll guess that Sexton has some film holders or backs DEDICATED for this
treatment but it's not the default in which he is accustomed toward
reaching for first. He'd dilute more normally as a default because
extreme treatments really do not make at all for the most ideal negs.
They make for negs which may have an extended range of tones or f stops
but try to separate them onto a print!  ...most often making for a thin
muddy look. Not ideal.

So you only want to use such treatments in very very contrasty
situations. And these situations do exist on planet earth with it's
ozone layer as is say in a landscape with very bright sun but you also
want to get into those very dark shadows. In reality your eye scans
first to the brights then the darks and even your eye is not going to
embrace all those tones at the same time. But I have seen prints which
seem to reflect this and they have not been overall dull in appearance
but still had pop and a glow. And Sexton has some practically famous
examples of this. I think of him as an expert in this look which in my
experience is like pulling a rabbit out of a hat. You try making these
ultra high dilutions work for you I've had no luck with them. Blotchy
negs. My local freinds as well. All of them Blotchy.

So in comparing the range of digital to the range of film I still recoil
at "15" as the f stops we get. One tenth of one percent of us might get
that on tenth of one percent of the time. The number they are pulling
from the digital end of things has more of a basis in reality.
B&W Film has a normal range of stops half 15.

That's my seven and a half stop solution!

Mark Rabiner
Portland, Oregon USA
http://www.rabinergroup.com

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Replies: Reply from Eric Welch <eric@jphotog.com> (Re: [Leica] 35mm color vs. the tyranny of the masses)
In reply to: Message from Frank Dernie <Frank.Dernie@btinternet.com> (Re: [Leica] Thom Hogan's photo predictions for 2004)
Message from Dante Stella <dante@umich.edu> ([Leica] 35mm color vs. the tyranny of the masses)
Message from Eric Welch <eric@jphotog.com> (Re: [Leica] 35mm color vs. the tyranny of the masses)
Message from Dante Stella <dante@umich.edu> (Re: [Leica] 35mm color vs. the tyranny of the masses)
Message from Mark Rabiner <mark@rabinergroup.com> (Re: [Leica] 35mm color vs. the tyranny of the masses)
Message from Eric Welch <eric@jphotog.com> (Re: [Leica] 35mm color vs. the tyranny of the masses)