Archived posting to the Leica Users Group, 2015/05/06

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Subject: [Leica] New M(246) Outputs 12 bit Files
From: red735i at verizon.net (Frank Filippone)
Date: Wed, 06 May 2015 10:49:15 -0700
References: <CAFU3ov+puVrAwQH8ytFTZzMc0OJ2CZ-E1P+ZRNx35JHTynz89Q@mail.gmail.com> <D16F9ECC.3969F%mark@rabinergroup.com> <01ee01d08820$7b997550$72cc5ff0$@verizon.net> <FACA3C68-BD1F-4C29-B771-9F9D9EFECCB7@gmail.com>

You are dealing with too many variables to establish cost difference in the
2 sensors in question.

If you were to ask me if there was any difference in the cost of the ADC on
the chip between the 12 and 14 bit resolution, all other things equal (
which they are not), the difference in cost is negligible.  Even the larger
processing engine ( Maestro, which is probably 16 bits anyway) ) and related
chip costs ( temporary storage of 12 vs 14 bit data, etc) , are negligible.

The dominant by far issue in chip yield is size of the chip.  The sensor
chips are huge, loaded with sensor pixels.  The overhead electronics,
including the ADC,  is relatively small, like a 1-10% issue, and maybe less.
The difference between 12 and 14 bits is 2/12 or 17%, on less than 1% of
chip area... Tiny is an overstatement.

If you want to know the difference in cost to the consumer of the complete
camera, if one were to use a 2 or 14 bit ADC, then the only costs I could
figure relevant is the size of the temporary buffer that stores the images
before they get transferred to the SD card.  I don't think it is really an
issue... since memory chips are only available in certain sizes ( usually in
4x increments: 4MB, 16MB, 64MB, 256MB.. you get the idea) and usually the
solution is to store less images and cut back on the buffer SIZE in image
quantity.... 14 in storage with a 12 bit ADC vs 12 in storage with a 12 bit
ADC is, if not purely correct, the right concept.  Ie, NADA effect on final
cost.

What effects final consumer cost the most is .... wait for it.... you know
it is coming.... Greed.  Profit.  Meeting Shareholder expectations. Getting
the most bucks from Bob.

All other things on a level playing field.

Frank Filippone
Red735i at verizon.net


-----Original Message-----
From: LUG [mailto:lug-bounces+red735i=verizon.net at leica-users.org] On 
Behalf
Of Steve Barbour
Sent: Wednesday, May 06, 2015 10:27 AM
To: Leica LUG
Subject: Re: [Leica] New M(246) Outputs 12 bit Files


> On May 6, 2015, at 10:17 AM, Frank Filippone <red735i at verizon.net> 
> wrote:
> 
> Mark and others....
> 
> The issue of 12 vs 14 bits is not straight forward.....  Yes, the 
> difference in a straight line way is 4 times the data, but really that 
> means there is 4 times the GRADATION in the data.  More gradation = 
> more smooth transitions between different tones.
> 
> Assuming the saturation point ( top value) and lowest point ( pure 
> black, as in more black is just not possible) remain fixed. Then there 
> could be a bit of non linear-ness to the ADC... There may be more 
> values in the bright areas, and less in the dark areas.... still 
> achieving the same dynamic range,. But 12 bits and 14 bits could have 
> different non-linear transfer functions....  Which, in the context of 
> photography, may not be at all easy to see with the eyes.
> 
> Let me stop here... I spent the better part of my working career in 
> understanding the intricacies of ADC products.  If I go any further in the
> explanation, I will lose almost everyone.    Suffice it to say that what
we
> do not know exceeds what we do know. 
> 
> Yes, there is a story out there... Yes it is important that we know 
> what that story is, in theory.  In practice, the M246 seems to produce 
> better images than the MM.... 12 bits 14 bits or some other number of
bits.
> 
> I agree with Mark.. HDD storage is so cheap that 12 vs 14 bits is a 
> ridiculous reason to chintz on the ADC resolution.  There is some 
> other reason.


Frank ...how bout in the cost of the camera, 14 v 12 bit,  is there a big
difference, so some one could think after reading the morning paper,  the
images  look about the same so we'll same some money in the camera cost,
both manufacture and cost to the consumer, i.e. they were just trying to
save some money so Bob could afford groceries.....


steve


>  
> 
> Or, someone made a bad assumption in the first place and this whole 
> thread is a waste of time.
> 
> Frank Filippone
> Red735i at verizon.net
> 
> Peter according  to some guy on the internet its not a matter of a few 
> steps up from 12 to 14 bit. Its  4 times as many shades of intensity 
> in a given range.
> That sounds like a big deal for me.
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Leica Users Group.
> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information


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Replies: Reply from mark at rabinergroup.com (Mark Rabiner) ([Leica] New M(246) Outputs 12 bit Files)
In reply to: Message from boulanger.croissant at gmail.com (Peter Klein) ([Leica] New M(246) Outputs 12 bit Files)
Message from mark at rabinergroup.com (Mark Rabiner) ([Leica] New M(246) Outputs 12 bit Files)
Message from red735i at verizon.net (Frank Filippone) ([Leica] New M(246) Outputs 12 bit Files)
Message from steve.barbour at gmail.com (Steve Barbour) ([Leica] New M(246) Outputs 12 bit Files)