Archived posting to the Leica Users Group, 2012/07/22

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Subject: [Leica] Some technical speculations re: rangefinder
From: richard at richardmanphoto.com (Richard Man)
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2012 01:20:05 -0700
References: <CAF8hL-EMSebH=YGfXU=qpuVyMbZxGjfH9cebK-BNVAS6oCMMkQ@mail.gmail.com> <p06240809cc308b2b92c9@192.168.1.103> <CAF8hL-H0Pne4ev8Q4Du2WD+8tGafOVa2YQ4r-m7qtzda+iBK-Q@mail.gmail.com> <p0624080ccc3121a4d6cf@192.168.1.103> <CAE3QcF4sTKjyGFWTgNf8xry==V0Cj3BpXvjtxxKA15ujBREc-A@mail.gmail.com> <8AE125E92F06484E99813B22B29761CB@syneticfeba505> <p0624080ecc315993f2df@192.168.1.103>

You guys are missing the point. You guys are thinking that "oh no, Leica
hasn't done it yet, or Leica will not do it (because they are probably
doing M10's liveview thing), therefore this must be complicated or not
needed."

This is the same reasoning that says, who needs a meter, or once we have
the M5/M6, who needs automatic exposure, or then who needs a digital M.

If what I propose are done, I suspect no one will say, "oh I wish they
haven't done THAT," but rather, hey this is cool, it works the way it
should be.

The only thing that I don't know how complicated it is, not being a
mechanical or optical engineer, is the multi-magnification thing. I do know
that the XPan has it, in limited fashion.

Yes I know it's too late in the world of rangefinder to make these
enhancements. Mother Leica will lead us to the brave new world of
CMOS/liveview. The rest of us (OK, one of us) will dream.

After all, I live in the Silicon Valley, our nature is to dream new and big
things.

On Sun, Jul 22, 2012 at 12:22 AM, Herbert Kanner <kanner at acm.org> wrote:

> Ted,
>
> What you said I like. When I was working with film, I paid some attention
> to framing of the picture. With the unbelievable resolution of the M9 and
> Leica glass, even my vintage 1970 something glass, I'm perfectly happy to
> crop as needed. So screw viewfinder frame line accuracy. I just shoot in
> the general direction and worry about exact framing in Lightroom.
>
> On the other hand, it's fun to talk about the tech stuff but I don't find
> it has all that much influence on my behavior.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Herb
>
>
>
>  Hey guys!
>>
>> Do you know what the problem is? It's theory, you are also thinking
>> too much about stuff you have no control over and if you discard all
>> this kind of thinking and just look through the rangefinder without
>> the major technical thought process you'll take very fine
>> photographs and enjoy the camera to a greater extent!
>>
>> However please be my guest at all this hyper jargon, as I do find it
>> interesting. Unfortunately being a person of lesser intelligence I
>> can never understand what yer talking about quite simply because I'm
>> just a photographer who takes pictures without thought, but
>> enjoyment of the captured moment! ;-) ;-) ;-)
>>
>> cheers,
>> Dr. ted.
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Geoff Hopkinson" <
>> hopsternew at gmail.com>
>> To: "Leica Users Group" <lug at leica-users.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, July 21, 2012 9:15 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Leica] Some technical speculations re: rangefinder
>>
>>
>>  Herb I would add that the M framing of course is only a guide and the
>>> instruction books show approximate error (in frameline widths) at
>>> minimum/maximum distance
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Geoff
>>> http://www.pbase.com/hoppyman
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 22 July 2012 13:23, Herbert Kanner <kanner at acm.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>  Wow! That was something I was not aware of and had me going for a while.
>>>> Then I started thinking about it like the physicist I once was. I said,
>>>> ok,
>>>> when you get closer, the lens has to move away from the sensor/film. Now
>>>> think about a pinhole, which could be thought of as an highly stopped
>>>> down
>>>> lens. As the pinhole moves away from the film/sensor, the angle
>>>> subtended
>>>> by same becomes smaller. So the frame lines in the viewfinder should get
>>>> closer to each other, making a smaller rectangle.
>>>>
>>>> Good to be forced to think once in a while.
>>>>
>>>> Herb
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  Thanks Herb. I am aware of that. I am referring to the size of the
>>>>
>>>>> framelines. As you get closer, the coverage should get smaller.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, Jul 21, 2012 at 9:39 AM, Herbert Kanner <kanner at acm.org>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>  > Richard,
>>>>>  >
>>>>>  > We already have parallax adjustment based on focusing distance on
>>>>> all
>>>>> M?
>>>>>  > cameras. Hold your camera very steady and watch the frame lines as
>>>>> you
>>>>>  > focus from minimum distance to infinity. If it isn't visible on
>>>>> those
>>>>> 28mm
>>>>>  > lines, shift the control to 35mm or longer or put in a longer lens.
>>>>>  >
>>>>>  > Regards,
>>>>>  >
>>>>>  > Herb
>>>>>  >
>>>>>  >
>>>>>  >
>>>>>  >
>>>>>  >  Speculating on an ideal optical rangefinder system (i.e. something
>>>>> that
>>>>>  >> retains the Leica M DNA and yet improves on the 1950 state of the
>>>>> art
>>>>> M3),
>>>>>  >> what if a rangefinder has the following features:
>>>>>  >>
>>>>>  >> - LED projected framelines. This removes the clutter, solves the
>>>>>  >> visibility
>>>>>  >> issue, and
>>>>>  >>
>>>>>  >> - changeable rangefinder magnification - what if the rangefinder
>>>>> has
>>>>> 0.58x
>>>>>  >> to 1.2x mag builtin (may be in 4 steps: 0.58x, 0.72x, 0.9x and
>>>>> 1.2x or
>>>>>  >> something similar)? This would allow more precise focusing from the
>>>>> wide
>>>>>  >> to
>>>>>  >> tele. This will leverage the existing frame line trigger and 6 bit
>>>>> coding
>>>>>  >> system of course so this would be automatic
>>>>>  >>
>>>>>  >> - parallax adjustment based on focusing distance
>>>>>  >>
>>>>>  >> We know LED framelines can be done. The M9 Titanium has it.
>>>>>  >>
>>>>>  >> The XPan has 2 magnifications: one for the 45mm lens and one for
>>>>> the
>>>>> 90mm
>>>>>  >> lens. I have no idea how difficult it is to insert multiple mag
>>>>> piece
>>>>> as
>>>>>  >> needed. Anyone knows?
>>>>>  >>
>>>>>  >> The cam position should also give good indication of the focusing
>>>>> distance
>>>>>  >> too, along with the lens info, so #3 is technically feasible too.
>>>>>  >>
>>>>>  >> Chances are Leica nor anyone else would really spend the resource
>>>>> to
>>>>>  >> develop something like these, since a CMOS/Liveview is so much
>>>>> "simpler,"
>>>>>  >> but would it be nice to have such a system?
>>>>>  >>
>>>>>  >> --
>>>>>  >> // richard
>>>>> <http://www.richardmanphoto.******com<http://www.**richardmanp**
>>>>> hoto.com 
>>>>> <http://richardmanphoto.com><http://www.**richardmanphoto.com<http://www.richardmanphoto.com>
>>>>> >
>>>>>  >
>>>>>  >> >
>>>>>  >>
>>>>>  >> ______________________________******_________________
>>>>>  >> Leica Users Group.
>>>>>  >> See
>>>>> http://leica-users.org/******mailman/listinfo/lug<http://leica-users.org/****mailman/listinfo/lug>
>>>>> <http://**leica-users.org/**mailman/**listinfo/lug<http://leica-users.org/**mailman/listinfo/lug>
>>>>> >
>>>>> <http://**leica-users.org/**mailman/**listinfo/lug<http://leica-users.org/mailman/**listinfo/lug>
>>>>> <http://**leica-users.org/mailman/**listinfo/lug<http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug>
>>>>> >>for
>>>>>
>>>>> more information
>>>>>  >>
>>>>>  >
>>>>>  > --
>>>>>  > Herbert Kanner
>>>>>  > kanner at acm.org
>>>>>  > 650-326-8204
>>>>>  >
>>>>>  > Question authority and the authorities will question you.
>>>>>  >
>>>>>  >
>>>>>  > ______________________________******_________________
>>>>>  > Leica Users Group.
>>>>>  > See
>>>>> http://leica-users.org/******mailman/listinfo/lug<http://leica-users.org/****mailman/listinfo/lug>
>>>>> <http://**leica-users.org/**mailman/**listinfo/lug<http://leica-users.org/**mailman/listinfo/lug>
>>>>> >
>>>>> <http://**leica-users.org/**mailman/**listinfo/lug<http://leica-users.org/mailman/**listinfo/lug>
>>>>> <http://**leica-users.org/mailman/**listinfo/lug<http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug>
>>>>> >>for
>>>>>
>>>>> more information
>>>>>  >
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> // richard
>>>>> <http://www.richardmanphoto.****com<http://www.**richardmanphoto.com<http://www.richardmanphoto.com>
>>>>> >
>>>>>  >
>>>>>
>>>>> ______________________________****_________________
>>>>> Leica Users Group.
>>>>> See
>>>>> http://leica-users.org/****mailman/listinfo/lug<http://leica-users.org/**mailman/listinfo/lug>
>>>>> <http://**leica-users.org/mailman/**listinfo/lug<http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug>>for
>>>>>
>>>>> more information
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Herbert Kanner
>>>> kanner at acm.org
>>>> 650-326-8204
>>>>
>>>> Question authority and the authorities will question you.
>>>>
>>>> ______________________________****_________________
>>>> Leica Users Group.
>>>> See
>>>> http://leica-users.org/****mailman/listinfo/lug<http://leica-users.org/**mailman/listinfo/lug>
>>>> <http://**leica-users.org/mailman/**listinfo/lug<http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug>>for
>>>>
>>>> more information
>>>>
>>>>
>>> ______________________________**_________________
>>> Leica Users Group.
>>> See 
>>> http://leica-users.org/**mailman/listinfo/lug<http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug>for
>>>  more information
>>>
>>
>>
>> ______________________________**_________________
>> Leica Users Group.
>> See 
>> http://leica-users.org/**mailman/listinfo/lug<http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug>for
>>  more information
>>
>
> --
> Herbert Kanner
> kanner at acm.org
> 650-326-8204
>
> Question authority and the authorities will question you.
>
> ______________________________**_________________
> Leica Users Group.
> See 
> http://leica-users.org/**mailman/listinfo/lug<http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug>for
>  more information
>



-- 
// richard <http://www.richardmanphoto.com>


Replies: Reply from red735i at earthlink.net (Frank Filippone) ([Leica] Some technical speculations re: rangefinder)
In reply to: Message from richard at richardmanphoto.com (Richard Man) ([Leica] Some technical speculations re: rangefinder)
Message from richard at richardmanphoto.com (Richard Man) ([Leica] Some technical speculations re: rangefinder)
Message from hopsternew at gmail.com (Geoff Hopkinson) ([Leica] Some technical speculations re: rangefinder)
Message from tedgrant at shaw.ca (tedgrant at shaw.ca) ([Leica] Some technical speculations re: rangefinder)