Archived posting to the Leica Users Group, 2011/10/29

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Subject: [Leica] We Surrender: A sign of the times in Fort Wayne
From: jayanand at gmail.com (Jayanand Govindaraj)
Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2011 08:11:51 +0530
References: <CAD12C79.6795%chris@chriscrawfordphoto.com> <CAH1UNJ1XcWSnbKT7yo_kCxZ5UbGc-zaEgYU8Jt6fS=JFCGhuRg@mail.gmail.com> <8D29C9A5-C2A1-43E1-8D2E-BE7832D20A50@mac.com> <1DF4341C-6FA3-4340-B919-67985107DE31@gmail.com> <1319905397.25727.YahooMailNeo@web86703.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <95C3D257-C6B9-4AB8-B7F2-F921A8E3D0A5@gmail.com> <F7002800-67AB-44B4-96E7-3C628FA10773@btinternet.com>

Frank,
I agree with you as far as today is concerned. Just remember, though,  there 
was very negligible bribery and corruption in India till 1969, and it was 
still a disaster. The major bribery/corruption explosion happened after 1991 
when India took a major lurch towards liberalisation and globalisation, 
which for all its ills has pulled more people over the poverty line than 
Fabian Socialism ever did. As far as I can see, Scandinavia is the only 
place which this has worked even half way, and that is because of a small 
population, as it has in Singapore. Remember the Labour administrations 
before Blair? 
Cheers
Jayanand

Sent from my iPad

On 29-Oct-2011, at 11:19 PM, Frank Dernie <Frank.Dernie at btinternet.com> 
wrote:

> Hi Jayanand,
> the problem in India, as far as I can tell, is endemic and massive bribery 
> and corruption. Any truly socialist system could never have existed in 
> those conditions, whatever it was purported to be called.
> The taxes are high in Scandinavia, so there are fewer very rich people and 
> fewer poor.
> Seems good to me.
> FD
> 
> On 29 Oct, 2011, at 18:36, Jayanand Govindaraj wrote:
> 
>> Well we had a 'socialist' system in India from 1947 to 1991 which was an 
>> utter and total disaster. I doubt any citizen, however poor, would want 
>> to go down that road again. The US problem, as it is with Western Europe, 
>> is that they think they have a God given right to pillage the worlds 
>> resources to maintain 'a fair wage' and other such measures of a standard 
>> of living, at the cost of 90% of the other inhabitants of the planet, for 
>> whom that 'fair wage' is a veritable fortune. Well I think the time has 
>> come where they have to learn to do without that at least a little bit at 
>> a time.
>> 
>> Again the myth of the Mom and Pop shop is just that - a romantic myth 
>> that makes people feel fuzzy all over. It is certainly not sensible 
>> allocation of capital under the economic system that the US follows. 
>> Creative destruction is very much part of that tenet. You cannot have 
>> cheap goods and high wages within the same country (not even in 
>> Scandinavia) without a major, all pervasive subsidy system, which is paid 
>> for by the taxpayers, either with stratospheric levels of tax, or high 
>> deficit financing. Do you really want to go down that usually disastorous 
>> route?
>> 
>> Cheers
>> Jayanand
>> 
>> Sent from my iPad
>> 
>> On 29-Oct-2011, at 9:53 PM, FRANK DERNIE <frank.dernie at btinternet.com> 
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> The only socialist systems I know of are in Scandinavia and work well, I 
>>> wish we were more like it here.
>>> I am not sure a Communist system has ever successfully been put in 
>>> place. The USSR and China, to quote societies which have claimed to be 
>>> communist, almost immediately turned into dictatorships where the 
>>> privileged few were massively better off than the rest, about as far 
>>> from communist as you can get.
>>> Humans are greedy, selfish and ruthless and any egalitarianism is not 
>>> natural to the species...
>>> IMO
>>> FD
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> ________________________________
>>>> From: Jayanand Govindaraj <jayanand at gmail.com>
>>>> To: Leica Users Group <lug at leica-users.org>
>>>> Sent: Saturday, 29 October 2011, 17:08
>>>> Subject: Re: [Leica] We Surrender: A sign of the times in Fort Wayne
>>>> 
>>>> It really is, you know, under Capitalist Economics. If you think not, 
>>>> live under a Socialist or Communist system and pay 10x the price for 
>>>> any item, which would also be of doubtful quality. Your choice! George, 
>>>> you want the whole world's resources utilised only to supporting US 
>>>> lifestyle forever. It won't happen.
>>>> Cheers
>>>> Jayanand
>>>> 
>>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>> 
>>>> On 29-Oct-2011, at 8:16 PM, George Lottermoser <imagist3 at mac.com> 
>>>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> On Oct 29, 2011, at 9:33 AM, Jayanand Govindaraj <jayanand at 
>>>>> gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> necessary event in the Capitalist
>>>>>> playing fields.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Fascinating - to consider impoverishing local economies "necessary" to 
>>>>> Capitalism.
>>>>> That thought is even sadder than the photograph.
>>>>> 
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Leica Users Group.
>>>>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Leica Users Group.
>>>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Leica Users Group.
>>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Leica Users Group.
>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Leica Users Group.
> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information



Replies: Reply from imagist3 at mac.com (George Lottermoser) ([Leica] We Surrender: A sign of the times in Fort Wayne)
In reply to: Message from chris at chriscrawfordphoto.com (Chris Crawford) ([Leica] We Surrender: A sign of the times in Fort Wayne)
Message from jayanand at gmail.com (Jayanand Govindaraj) ([Leica] We Surrender: A sign of the times in Fort Wayne)
Message from imagist3 at mac.com (George Lottermoser) ([Leica] We Surrender: A sign of the times in Fort Wayne)
Message from jayanand at gmail.com (Jayanand Govindaraj) ([Leica] We Surrender: A sign of the times in Fort Wayne)
Message from frank.dernie at btinternet.com (FRANK DERNIE) ([Leica] We Surrender: A sign of the times in Fort Wayne)
Message from jayanand at gmail.com (Jayanand Govindaraj) ([Leica] We Surrender: A sign of the times in Fort Wayne)
Message from Frank.Dernie at btinternet.com (Frank Dernie) ([Leica] We Surrender: A sign of the times in Fort Wayne)