Archived posting to the Leica Users Group, 2011/10/21

[Author Prev] [Author Next] [Thread Prev] [Thread Next] [Author Index] [Topic Index] [Home] [Search]

Subject: [Leica] Plagarism
From: ricc at embarqmail.com (Ric Carter)
Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 11:44:36 -0400
References: <CA+yJO1DxYr3dRVXQDsUwkPB3204RgE2Qmh_yej9ezX7auz1qFQ@mail.gmail.com> <5F214B67-77AB-4753-B590-1E8D0759FCEB@sfr.fr> <BLU155-W3283F57315D539B0E895018DEB0@phx.gbl> <CA+yJO1DX3pKYr=qisAaUVQy=iBn1Urnh40r6C3LoPvTH3WEO+Q@mail.gmail.com> <CAN4TZQ7JeWiZok=yC+6HAQ-6dPXAYTTf7L01q7VcUQLXgR88Pw@mail.gmail.com>

that's odd

when i look it up on wiki, it says havens covered the dylan tune which was 
written in 1967

it is one of his most covered songs, and i have never before heard that he 
stole it from havens

i'd love to see the article that refers to that--all i can find is one 
reference in one anonymous comment on a marcus article

thanks

ric





On Oct 21, 2011, at 11:26 AM, Chris Saganich wrote:

> All along the watchtower is a Richie Havens song.  Hendrix's version if so
> similar to how Havens plays, his guitar style (and a trained ear can hear 
> it
> a mile away), that I suspect Havens is playing the acustic guitar on the
> track. Dylan coped songs from everyone he encountered, he was a sponge
> soaking it up and ringing it out, this was his genius.  This is why he was
> so popular, everyone thinks they already know the song.  No one ever 
> accused
> him of being a master of originality, he was an absolute conformist who
> soaked up the normative culture and put it back out for consumption.  
> That's
> why he had to break from it, he created a monster for himself.  At some
> point early on he learned he could take full credit for thinly disguised
> traditional songs.  This was a long standing tradition in the publishing
> industry except that the artists rarely received the publishing royalties.
> Perhaps Dylan though why should people like Howie Richmond, Harold
> Leventhal, and Pete Kameron get the publishing rights? An interesting
> copyright case study is the song "The Lion Sleeps Tonight" and the tin Pan
> Alley practice of creating fake authors for slightly different versions of
> songs that were thought to be traditional; one might ask why publish under 
> a
> pseudonym?  Dylan obviously feels he can put his name on these slightly
> altered versions of other peoples work and collect the royalties.  As a
> musician it was plausible that he actually wrote the music and authored the
> words, but as a painter we see how less plausible it actually is.
> 
> All this BTW is plagiarized from Wikipedia but I added enough of my own
> thoughts to claim it is mine.
> 
> Chris
> 
> On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 9:07 AM, Tina Manley <images at comporium.net> 
> wrote:
> 
>> No, you're not mistaken.  Joni Mitchell accused him of plagiarizing the 
>> old
>> labor songs for his lyrics.
>> 
>> Tina
>> 
>> On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 8:55 AM, Jean-Michel Mertz <j2m46 at hotmail.fr>
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> 
>>> Well, yes, what's being creative? Is it pointing out what we hadn't seen
>> so
>>> far, putting things in a different perspective and giving us (the reader,
>>> the viewer, the listener ...) a new insight into the meaning of life,
>> since
>>> this is what we are all looking for? Is there a difference between
>>> Giacometti copying African art,  La Fontaine plagiarizing Aesop and Bob
>>> Dylan using a series of photographies which are not of his own making?
>>> Actually, I think there are sources - archetypes - which are part of our
>>> heritage and which are being reinterpreted generation after generation by
>>> the ones we recognize - though it does take some time - as poets,
>> artists,
>>> etc. What do you call new and creative when someone wrote thousands of
>> years
>>> ago that "the thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that
>>> which is done, is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing
>> under
>>> the sun." Nevertheless I believe Bob Dylan should be open about his
>> sources.
>>> I think I've read somewhere that the lyrics of his famous "How many
>> times"
>>> or even of  "The times they are a'changing" are not really his, but I
>> might
>>> be mistaken ...Jean-Michel    > From: philippe.amard at sfr.fr
>>>> To: lug at leica-users.org
>>>> Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 20:05:28 +0200
>>>> Subject: Re: [Leica] Plagarism
>>>> 
>>>> Tina,
>>>> 
>>>> I can't see where the problem lies in fact - a photo is a photo
>>>> alright, and a painting is a painting alright too - the art is
>>>> different, the crafting is also different - I dk if it makes sense to
>>>> anyone, but me...
>>>> Even though I bet those of us photogs who've used brushes in their
>>>> lives might concur.
>>>> 
>>>> Most painters have been using photos or photographic techniques over
>>>> the years - from the Dutch masters to the super/hyper-realists.
>>>> Hockney also did both.
>>>> Most photogs have been influenced by painters, is that a problem?
>>>> I don't know a good photog who can disclaim this - HCB was so strict
>>>> on composition, inherited from, guess what ...
>>>> 
>>>> For me it all boils down to: As a viewer, do I like it, or not?
>>>> whatever the gear.
>>>> 
>>>> In the meantime, Van Gogh has now been killed by teenagers. A sign of
>>>> the times?
>>>> 
>>>> Bien cordialement de Metz
>>>> Philippe
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Le 19 oct. 11 ? 16:52, Tina Manley a ?crit :
>>>> 
>>>>> LUG:
>>>>> 
>>>>> By Bob Dylan, no less:
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>> 
>> http://artsbeat.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/09/26/questions-raised-about-dylan-show-at-gagosian/?ref=artsf
>>>>> 
>>>>> The other examples I've seen on the internet are exact copies of
>>>>> photographs, including those by Henri Cartier-Bresson.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I have had several artists request to use my photos for their
>>>>> paintings.  I
>>>>> always give permission with the qualification that they must include
>> a
>>>>> notice that the painting is based on a photo copyrighted by Tina
>>>>> Manley.
>>>>> Looks like Dylan failed to ask permission or even acknowledge that
>>>>> he uses
>>>>> photographs!
>>>>> 
>>>>> Tina
>>>>> 
>>>>> --
>>>>> Tina Manley, ASMP
>>>>> www.tinamanley.com
>>>>> 
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Leica Users Group.
>>>>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information
>>>> NO ARCHIVE
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Leica Users Group.
>>>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Leica Users Group.
>>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> Tina Manley, ASMP
>> www.tinamanley.com
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Leica Users Group.
>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Chris Saganich
> www.imagebrooklyn.com
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Leica Users Group.
> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information



Replies: Reply from csaganich at gmail.com (Chris Saganich) ([Leica] Plagarism)
Reply from jayanand at gmail.com (Jayanand Govindaraj) ([Leica] Plagarism)
In reply to: Message from images at comporium.net (Tina Manley) ([Leica] Plagarism)
Message from philippe.amard at sfr.fr (philippe.amard) ([Leica] Plagarism)
Message from j2m46 at hotmail.fr (Jean-Michel Mertz) ([Leica] Plagarism)
Message from images at comporium.net (Tina Manley) ([Leica] Plagarism)
Message from csaganich at gmail.com (Chris Saganich) ([Leica] Plagarism)