Archived posting to the Leica Users Group, 2010/05/04
[Author Prev] [Author Next] [Thread Prev] [Thread Next] [Author Index] [Topic Index] [Home] [Search]For some reason I've fallen 114 e-mails behind in life and so just saw this exchange. Thanks to Phil, who explained the issue very well. I used 'contradict' I suspect A.) because it was late and B.) because I had this sense that both phrases could be read either as restrictive or non-restrictive so why was the first yes and the second no? It was a shorthand way of expressing my sleep deprived sense that he was contradicting himself. The easiest and (in American usage) virtually always correct rule of thumb for that/which is to use 'that' anytime it doesn't sound wrong, and to use 'which' only when 'that' sounds wrong. I could explain this but it would be boring. Interestingly, the great prose stylists of England in the first half of the 20th century -- George Orwell, E.M. Forster, G.B. Shaw, Jos. Conrad, Virginia Woolf, etc etc -- all use 'which' almost universally and, according to their contemporary, Fowler, quite incorrectly most of the time -- to the point it can distract the modern reader -- "I've left a note which explains how I earlier ate the plums which you'd left in the fridge, which I thought was as good a way an any to let you know about it, and which now I can use as a poem, fancy that." Couldn't use 'which' for that last one. For grammar freaks the late David Foster Wallace's long essay for Harper's Magazine some years ago, on usage guides and dictionaries, is a must. Vince On Sat, May 1, 2010 at 1:25 PM, Phil Swango <pswango at att.net> wrote: > G. Lottermoser asked Vince: > can you explain further your use of the word "contradicts" in this > context? > I'm left a tad puzzled. > ========================================== > > George, I won't try to speak for Vince, but my reading of the poem is that > 'that' was used in the first instance because the phrase 'that were in the > icebox' contains information essential to the meaning of the proposition, > ergo the phrase is restrictive. 'Which you were probably ...' I guess > should be interpreted as non-restrictive, and calls for 'which.' > > http://www.english-the-easy-way.com/Determiners/That_Which.htm< > http://www.english-the-easy-way.com/Determiners/That_Which.htm> > > I would think 'contrast' closer to the idea than 'contradict,' but I did > appreciate Vince's pointing it out. Makes the poem even more enjoyable. > > > -- > Phil Swango > 307 Aliso Dr SE > Albuquerque, NM 87108 > 505-262-4085 > > _______________________________________________ > Leica Users Group. > See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information >