Archived posting to the Leica Users Group, 2006/10/19
[Author Prev] [Author Next] [Thread Prev] [Thread Next] [Author Index] [Topic Index] [Home] [Search]I think that owning an assault rifle for home defense is impractical, yes. However, if one believes in protecting oneself, family and property, law enforcement doesn't do that for you. There is no reason that a law abiding citizen cannot responsibly own and use a firearm of any type (small arms here, not artillery pieces & the like.) I love target shooting and though I don't know if it should be considered a "sport" it certainly requires great discipline and training to be able to consistently and accurately place shots on target. It's just a step below golf in it's level of discipline and ability, but much the same when it comes to the final goal. Fear is what drives irrational decisions. A gun will not shoot itself, we all know this. The only way a firearm will do what it's supposed to is if a person operating it makes it work. Fear is what needs to be overcome by people who don't know anything about firearms. They should be shown that a firearm is just a tool, the same way that a torque wrench is a tool. They have very specific purposes, but both are tools nonetheless. I have no problem with people who don't like guns, but for rational reasons. Anti-gun folks need to come up with real and equitable solutions to the problems they have that will WORK. There will never be a United States where firearm ownership is not a right, so that side of the gun argument needs to come up with a realistic solution to the problems they have with firearms. The AWB proved that gun violence did not decrease during the 10 years it was effective. 10 rounds in the magazine or 100 rounds, it doesn't matter. Assault weapons are used in so few crimes as to be a blip on the radar in comparison to the gun related crimes committed with Raven .25's or other cheap guns. The average assault weapon starts at about $600. Few if any criminals are going to be willing to put that kind of money into a firearm when they could get a cheap pistol for $30. The only way that crime with firearms is to be quelled is by large scale changes in society. People need to be educated about firearms, the law and how with a lot of cooperation, we can turn the gun related violence around. Many parents view themselves as responsible when teaching their children about sex, birth control and parenting, right? (not as many as need to be though) Why wouldn't someone want to teach a person how to properly and safely handle a firearm? We teach people how to safely drive cars every day. Still the vehicular fatality statistics in this country are several times the gun related fatality numbers. The last issue I don't like is the anti-gun group playing upon that very fear and lack of knowledge by saying things like "...it might go off. Six blocks away someone's family member could be holding their insides in their hands.." This little bit of editorial journalism is just what people like myself don't want to read or hear. It uses that fear of the unknowing to suggest that there is a gun (not artillery) that a person could buy these days, shoot, and eviscerate an innocent person a half mile away. Yes, people do get shot from stray rounds landing through their windows and roofs. This is an amazingly small number of people. Most wounds are superficial. And surely, there is not a small arm available to the public at this time that could do such a thing. Most small arms up to and including the .50 cal BMG only produce small, oblong holes at their tumbling worst. I'm not condoning any of this, of course. I don't support gun related violence or the wounding of innocent people at all, I'm just saying that a bit of exaggeration, or a lot, is not a good thing when it comes to this topic. OK, I've written far too much for sure. Philip -----Original Message----- From: lug-bounces+photo.forrest=earthlink.net@leica-users.org [mailto:lug-bounces+photo.forrest=earthlink.net@leica-users.org] On Behalf Of Walt Johnson Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 6:51 PM To: Leica Users Group Subject: Re: [Leica] Dog wrangling - guns, kids, and saying "cheese" If that is so, and I have no doubt it is, why the diatribe against those who avoid gun nuts. The idea it pertains to fear or lack of understanding seems shallow. I'd more likely attribute it to a lack of fear. Anyone who owns an assault rifle for "home defense" has to be very possibly ignorant or mentally ill. Anyone who owns an assault rifle and claims to be a sport shooter has no real idea of sport. Had there not been the initial tone directed toward us anti-gun nuts I'd not have said a word. Kyle's work is excellent, and I'm sure it will make on hell of a publication. Still, the mental condition many of his subjects exhibit says quite a bit about fear. Happy shooting and be sure to count toes when it's all over ;-) http://gallery.leica-users.org/v/waltjohnson/haiti_votes.jpg.html Walt Philip Forrest wrote: >http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a335/PForrest/Iraq/BloodyBootsM01E.jpg >I know what fresh blood and human corpses smell like in all varieties. >Mangled, burned by WP, burned by napalm, burned by cordite. The pink goo in >the tread of this Corpsman's boots happens to be some of that of which you >speak. Thanks for your input. > >-----Original Message----- >From: lug-bounces+photo.forrest=earthlink.net@leica-users.org >[mailto:lug-bounces+photo.forrest=earthlink.net@leica-users.org] On Behalf >Of Walt Johnson >Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 3:38 PM >To: Leica Users Group >Subject: Re: [Leica] Dog wrangling - guns, kids, and saying "cheese" > >The type of moron who feels safe at home because he owns a AK47 or M16 >is the personification of ignorance. As far as Kyle's project being a >study bridging political persuasions? That might be more fantasy than >fact. As far as having an issue with the photos? I like them. Most are >well-done and say much more about real fear than we could without imaging. > >The biggest problem with the juvenile rationale "don't buy the book, >don't look at them"? Some of these crackpots might live down the street >from a sane person. Next time one of Kyle's subjects brings out his >assault weapon to stroke his "manliness" it might go off. Six blocks >away someone's family member could be holding their insides in their hands.. > >The really disturbing thing about the photos is the superficially >involved in describing what many may sense on a deeper level. For >someone to equate a lack of understanding with fear makes no sense. It >makes me wonder what kind of life experiences that person may have >chalked up. Would I want to outlaw private gun ownership? Not at all. >Am I stupid enough to believe an armed America keeps "democracy" safe? I >sure as hell hope not. > >One thing is certain. This is a sick and demented culture. Centuries >from now the history of America will read like most other failed >empires. Sick, demented, fearful and without saving grace. What could >have been a "real" progressive haven for mankind was corrupted and >debauched. Gun nuts, religious zealots and a host of other despicable >idiots. > >Walt > >p.s. Sheer ignorance might also be not knowing the smell of fresh >blood and intestines. > > >Philip Forrest wrote: > > > >>The only thing disturbing about the photos is that people who fear what >> >> >they > > >>don't understand (in this case firearms) see gun owners as a crazy sort of >>people. For those of you here who like to make photographs, you'd be >>pleasantly surprised how good you are at shooting a firearm. The skills >> >> >and > > >>training of your body that you use to make a photo are exactly the same as >>firing a gun. >>I ask you WHAT EXACTLY is the disturbing part of the book? You can't just >>say guns because that's sheer ignorance. There were only two or three >> >> >photo > > >>sessions in this project that were actually a little bit unnerving. Not to >>worry though, because I handled the situation, making sure that safety was >>the first and foremost issue. If you have a real issue with the photos >>contained in Armed America, you can do several things: >>Don't look at them >>Don't buy the book >>Come shooting with Kyle and I >> >>This project has never been tackled in the way that Kyle is doing it. It's >>a study meant to bridge all political parties, showing that ownership of >>firearms is not a republican or libertarian issue, but an American one. >>Philip >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: lug-bounces+photo.forrest=earthlink.net@leica-users.org >>[mailto:lug-bounces+photo.forrest=earthlink.net@leica-users.org] On Behalf >>Of Steve Barbour >>Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 1:50 PM >>To: Leica Users Group >>Subject: Re: [Leica] Dog wrangling - guns, kids, and saying "cheese" >> >> >>On Oct 19, 2006, at 9:58 AM, Jim Shulman wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >>>If anything, these pictures do NOT seem cute and harmless. >>>They can be very disturbing in their utter normality. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>(true Jim, as in "seem cute and harmless") >> >> >> >> >> >>>Has anyone else ever documented gun owners as Kyle is doing now? >>> >>> >>> >>> >>"documented gun owners ".... really now Jim, >> >>that is not what Kyle is doing...he is photographing people who want >>to be photographed.... in the living room, with the wife , kids, dog, >>and semiautomatic weapons...at the invitation of a photographer who >>wants to sell a book... (we all do so.... sorry Kyle).... >> >>I see this in large part a creation, a fiction.. (good and bad)... >> >>selecting a few individuals who want five minutes of fame, quite >>possibly having nothing at all to do with the fictional entity... >> >>"documented gun owners"... >> >>analogous to a study of people and their nudity, based on people who >>want to get photographed in their living room naked... >> >>I am afraid that is a good part of the dynamics and psychopathology >>that is being celebrated and exploited here... >> >>and now I have said more than enough, >> >>but the photos are good, and they are obviously disturbing... >> >> >>Steve >> >> >> >> >> >> >>>Not to my knowledge. >>>He noted that a vast proportion of the US population owns guns and >>>considers >>>them a part of their home life. Yet, there must have been some >>>unspoken >>>taboo against showing this, as people would show off their doggies, >>>cute >>>kids, or macram? collections. Pictures like this just aren't taken or >>>shown. >>>I can't think of a better definition for art: it makes me consider the >>>commonplace in a wholly different manner. >>> >>>If he can sell it, all the more power to him. That means so many >>>other >>>people will be forced to consider the middle-class normality of gun >>>ownership, whether they approve of it or not. Personally, I'd >>>prefer far >>>stricter controls on access to guns, but that doesn't mean I shouldn't >>>consider the pervasive ownership and public affection for firearms. >>> >>>Jim Shulman >>>Bryn Mawr, PA >>> >>> >>> >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: lug-bounces+jshul=comcast.net@leica-users.org >>>[mailto:lug-bounces+jshul=comcast.net@leica-users.org] On Behalf Of >>>Steve >>>Barbour >>>Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 12:32 PM >>>To: Leica Users Group >>>Subject: Re: [Leica] Dog wrangling - guns, kids, and saying "cheese" >>> >>>gosh Kyle... >>> >>>you are such a fine photographer.... why do you insist on taking a >>>tiny slice of the psychopathology that's out there, glorifying it... >>>and making it seem cute and harmless... >>> >>>is it only because you can sell it? >>> >>> >>> >>>Steve >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Leica Users Group. >>>See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Leica Users Group. >>See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information >> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Leica Users Group. >>See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information >> >> >> >> >> > >_______________________________________________ >Leica Users Group. >See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information > > > >_______________________________________________ >Leica Users Group. >See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information > > > _______________________________________________ Leica Users Group. 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