Archived posting to the Leica Users Group, 2006/01/22
[Author Prev] [Author Next] [Thread Prev] [Thread Next] [Author Index] [Topic Index] [Home] [Search]Here 'tis friends, from the mouth - or pen - or computer of him who knows: Hello Seth, here comes the world shaking answer: The top cover of the LEICA R9 is made out of magnesium alloy. It was made out of zinc die cast on the R8. Obviously you have found a mistake in the spec! You're the first since 2002! All the best and hope to see you soon! Stefan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frank Dernie" <Frank.Dernie@btinternet.com> To: "Leica Users Group" <lug@leica-users.org> Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2006 4:09 AM Subject: Re: Was RE: [Leica] DSLR choice - now Zeiss-Ikon > Hi Bill, > I think the situation boils down to the difference between "good enough" > and "the best material possible". Clearly either the manufacturers are > lying, which I do not believe, or are convincing people that the > materials are good enough by writing things such as you quote. The shell > of a camera is hardly a high tech structural element. It is a cosmetic > cover which keeps dirt out. The precision stuff is inside. The worst load > case a camera will experience it to be dropped, I expect. Then who is to > say what is good enough? With respect to Leica (almost on topic), dropped > onto the top plate a brass plate will probably dent, a zinc (probably > mazak) will dent or crack and so will magnesium. What actually happens > depends at least as much on what angle it lands, what it lands on and > from what height than the material of the shell. > > What I take issue with, and it irritates me a great deal, is that the > marketing propaganda presents magnesium as new and superior. It may > indeed meet all the criteria somebody has set for a camera - hardly any > sort of high tech duty cycle. The fact that magnesium is "rugged, robust > and durable" in a camera context only questionable in the durability > sense. There is probably a hard cheese being made somewhere in the world > which is rugged and durable enough for a camera shell - he joked - but I > am sure you get my drift. I won't repeat what I have already written > about magnesium but the butt of my concern is the durability issue. I > have many Leicas. The lovely old black ones have "brassing". Had they > been made from magnesium rather than brass there would be holes in them > where it had corroded through. I have seen a magnesium helicopter gearbox > casing from an aircraft that had been inadvisably used by its owner to > land on his boat. At its first inspection from new the casing was scrap, > less than 12 months old. Marinized helicopters have aluminium casings I > believe. > Chrome plated brass lenses I have are like new, regardless of age. > Aluminium and brass are OK if used all the time, the wear rubs of oxide > spots. Some of the wartime IIIc cameras have blistering chrome plate > where the aluminium is corroding underneath. If they had been magnesium > they would be corroded through. > > I have looked at a few pro photographers C*non long lenses which are > painted magnesium too. Where they have chipped the paint off one can see > the surface plating. As long as the bangs don't break through this > coating they may be OK. They obviously don't care about longevity anyway > because they change things frequently. Maybe magnesium can be made > adequate anywhere weight is the dominant factor and long life is > irrelevant (digicam?). Magnesium can not be made good, even its best > alloys make it useable rather than good. > > If any of my engineers proposed a finishing process which -required- > moving through 3 countries I would ask what he had been drinking. That > would be of questionable acceptability for a high tech application never > mind a dust cover. In the Leica case I would bet that is because the > castings are done in France, the cameras made in Portugal and the QC, > packaging and attachment of the "made in" sticker in Germany. > > Well Bill you and I have gone on a bit here, I ask the indulgence of any > Lugger who has got this far. I do not doubt that magnesium can be made > "good enough" structurally for a camera shell. I do not believe it can be > made "as good as" any of the alternatives historically used - including > fibre reinforced plastic. An unused component with perfectly applied, > undamaged, surface coating MAY be "durable" but a used one with a surface > scratched to bare metal, like a typical pro used camera, will not be as > durable as any of the traditionally used alternatives. > Frank > > On 21 Jan, 2006, at 18:00, Bill Marshall wrote: > >> Frank, >> >> I truly appreciate all of the information that you have presented & the >> fact that you have lent your expertise to this discussion. Thank you for >> your patience with me who knows next to nothing about this subject other >> than what I can learn from reading. I'm just a guy who likes cameras & >> who is trying to understand the marketplace. >> >> I certainly understand that Marketing Departments are paid to hype their >> products & that these departments can be prone to exaggeration. So, I'm >> not surprised when they claim that something is "rugged," "durable," or >> "robust" & it is so only to a very limited degree. However, it's >> certainly confusing to read about the testing that Nikon & Zeiss say >> that they have done & to read their claim that magnesium meets the >> highest standards of professional use (Nikon's claim) in terms of >> resistance to corrosion & of shock resistance and for this not to be >> true. This would be more than marketing hype & exaggeration. It would be >> misrepresentation, a blatant lie. While I certainly don't put it past >> the corporate community to engage in such deceipt, it would be >> surprising coming from companies like Nikon & Zeiss. I assume that Canon >> & Leica have done similar testing although it is not explicitly stated >> in their materials, so it only adds to my confusion when companies of >> their stature also represent this material as strong & as fit for its >> intended purpose. >> >> Some time ago, I corresponded with Hasselblad about the Zeiss Ikon, >> specifically in regard to the magnesium body plating as well as other >> matters. Since they couldn't answer my questions, they referred me to >> one of the engineers at Carl Zeiss AG. In an exchange of several lengthy >> e-mails, he assured me that they had subjected the camera to intensive >> testing in their environmental test lab for extremes of temperature, >> humidity, shock, and vibration, that they had insisted on improvements & >> modifications where they felt necessary, & that the camera met all of >> their standards in this regard. The tone of his letters bore no >> resemblance to someone from a marketing department. >> >> I don't know if the following sheds any light on the discussion, but >> here is what Leica has to say on the subject in a press release about >> the R9: >> >> "Magnesium is particularly difficult to manage with respect to corrosion >> resistance and scuffing. Leica for the first time employs a >> plasma-chemical process for coating the light metal. This transforms the >> surface of the magnesium into a thick ceramic layer. In the process, >> special demands are placed on the magnesium alloy and on the preparation >> of the surface. Special lacquers are then applied to achieve an >> extraordinarily long-lasting finish. A greater fabrication effort is >> also required for casting the magnesium in the molds because this takes >> place at temperatures of 700 degrees C (1292 degrees F) as compared to >> 400 degrees C (752 degrees F) in the die-casting process." >> >> More from Erwin Puts on the matter: >> >> "Magnesium is the lightest of all commercially available metals with a >> specific gravity of 1.75. It is in itself not a strong metal, nor has it >> good elasticity. You need to create an alloy and use a considerable >> thickness or utilize deep sections to obtain good stiffness. It is a >> very high cost material and does not possess good corrosion >> characteristics. The painting and casting and shaping of the topcover is >> a process that takes place in three countries (Germany, France, and >> Portugal) before it ends up on the R9." >> >> Again thanks for sharing your knowledge & for your patience with me. >> >> Best regards, >> bill >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Leica Users Group. >> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information > > > _______________________________________________ > Leica Users Group. > See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information >