Archived posting to the Leica Users Group, 2005/08/11

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Subject: [Leica] B&W elementary tech
From: scott at adrenaline.com (Scott McLoughlin)
Date: Thu Aug 11 20:20:24 2005
References: <BF210D36.3900%bdcolen@comcast.net> <42FBB282.5080202@adrenaline.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050811172900.02c395a8@pop.med.cornell.edu>

Thanks for the careful analysis. I should have mentioned that I'm
using "consumer" digital equipment - Nikon Coolscan V, Vuescan,
PictureWindow Pro, Epson 2200 + Quadtone RIP and so on.

Getting good B&W 11x14's and 11x17's as good as my buddy's wet
prints from the lab has proven quite "elusive."  I have yet to profile
my own papers with QTR on the 2200, so there is definitely still
some room for improvement. I'm working on it :-)

I will say I'm reasonably happy up to 8x10 with B&W and up
to 11x17 or 11x14 printing color on the more common papers
(EEM, Premier Semigloss, etc.) for which there are already
reasonably good (IMHO) profiles.

Scott

Chris Saganich wrote:

> Yes this has been my experience size matters.
>
> I want to print as big as possible.  A digital work flow which will 
> match my expectations includes drum scanning ($200/day rental) and 
> printing 16x20, $80 first print then $70 there after, discount for 
> bulk runs.  Under the best circumstances I would pay $200 for a day of 
> scanning, say in 8 hours I can scan 40 negs at 12 minutes per scan (I 
> have no idea how long a 40 meg drum scan takes).  I then go home do 
> post production and return to print my 40 negs 16x20 without 
> mistakes.  Total cost $3,400 or $85 per print. Not bad really.
>
> What if I bought the equipment myself?
>
> $4,000 cheapest simulated drum scanner
> $2,000 large printer and ink set
> $500 for software
> Good paper? $70 for box of 50 16x20 and I make no mistakes when 
> printing. $1.40 per print.
> Assuming I have the computer equipment.
> Total $6,600
>
>
> In the darkroom the cost is lower.  50 sheets 16x 20 runs about $90.  
> I  waste about 20 8x10 figuring out a print ($12.00) and a couple 
> 16x20's getting the new base exposure, so I can get say 40 prints from 
> a box on a good day.  $90 +$12 = $102 or $2.55 per print.  And it 
> probably has better blacks.
>
> Cost for my equipment:
> Beseler enlarger - Free
> Cold light head - $400 new
> Multi-functional proportional timer with light senser- $250
> Filter $15
> Large trays - I got 6 for $40
> process timer - wall clock I found
> Amber light - $5 bulbs in a regular socket
> Large Easel - $200
> Chemistry - $100
> Large Washer - $300
> Total $1310
>
> Wet printing is about 30% cheaper due to the equipment costs. Not too 
> bad all in all.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Chris
>
> At 04:18 PM 8/11/2005, you wrote:
>
>> I've been printing B&W digitally for about a year, while a buddy of
>> mine has been running back and forth to a pro lab looking at contact
>> sheets and getting wet prints.  I have to admit that most of his prints
>> are nicer.  Not so much at 5x7, but beyond 8x10, my subjective
>> experience is that the wet printing process is better at pushing that
>> little 135 negative to larger prints.  Same goes for the really grainy
>> films like P3200.
>>
>> OTOH, he can't or isn't willing to pay for custom dodge/burn work,
>> while I can mask the shadows of a scanned image and bring them up
>> 15% in PictureWindow Pro in about 2 minutes.  So, I'm a pretty happy
>> camper (usually) with the tools currently at my disposal.
>>
>> Scott
>>
>> B. D. Colen wrote:
>>
>>> God I never thought I'd end up defending wet prints...but Walt, the
>>> suggestion that " Adobe Photoshop, Nikon Coolscan and a good Epson 
>>> printer(
>>> in the right hands) can blow away most wet prints" is complete and 
>>> utter
>>> nonsense, assuming you're referring to wet printing "in the right 
>>> hands."
>>>
>>> Digital printing is digital printing, whether using the OEM inks, or 
>>> systems
>>> such as the Cone quadtones, or MIS inks. And silver printing is silver
>>> printing. Both will, in the hands of a competent printer, produce 
>>> gorgeous
>>> results. But neither will be 'better' than the other.
>>>
>>> Now, if you want to say that a competent digital printer can more 
>>> quickly
>>> produce, and infinitely more quickly reproduce a print than even the 
>>> best
>>> wet printer, you're absolutely correct. :-)
>>> B. D.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 8/11/05 1:58 PM, "Walt Johnson" <walt@waltjohnson.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Bill:
>>>>
>>>> You can certainly scan you b&w negative and print on an inkjet with 
>>>> good
>>>> results. As a matter of fact, a few simple tools can insure better 
>>>> results
>>>> than a Focomat V35.
>>>>
>>>> Adobe Photoshop, Nikon Coolscan and a good Epson printer( in the 
>>>> right hands)
>>>> can blow away most wet prints. Most importantly, the results are 
>>>> repeatable.
>>>>
>>>> There are some very good links on the subject  and one of the best 
>>>> is Clayton
>>>> Jones. http://www.cjcom.net/articles/digiprn1.htm
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Walt  J.
>>>> walt@waltjohnson.com
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Leica Users Group.
>>>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Leica Users Group.
>>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Leica Users Group.
>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information
>
>
> Chris Saganich, Sr. Physicist
> Weill Medical College of Cornell University
> New York Presbyterian Hospital
>
> Ph. 212.746.6964
> Fax. 212.746.4800
> A0049
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Leica Users Group.
> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information



In reply to: Message from bdcolen at comcast.net (B. D. Colen) ([Leica] B&W elementary tech)
Message from scott at adrenaline.com (Scott McLoughlin) ([Leica] B&W elementary tech)
Message from chs2018 at med.cornell.edu (Chris Saganich) ([Leica] B&W elementary tech)