Archived posting to the Leica Users Group, 2005/01/25

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Subject: [Leica] Doomed:now a discussion of leica owners
From: bdcolen at earthlink.net (B. D. Colen)
Date: Tue Jan 25 07:11:03 2005

Believe it or not, Don, I, too, am glad Leica held on and continued to
produce sensibly refined traditional gear - and I'd include the
ill-fated M5 in that category. Unfortunately, the company has fallen
down in three areas if what one cares about is long-term survival:
1. Marketing. And by marketing I'm talking about how they positioned the
product. Had the company used advertising, student programs, and PR to
position the M as "The" serious pro camera, the camera that every
newspaper, magazine and documentary photographer wants around his or her
neck even if they're being forced for commercial reasons to use a motor
drive-laden behemoth, they would have, I believe, secured a much larger
market than they did by position the product as a jewel for the elite.
More money in marketing - and real R&D - rather than in special
editions, would have gone a long way. And don't forget that the kind of
position I'm suggesting would appeal to the "jewel" crowd, the serious
"am" crowd, as well as up and coming pros - because the folks in those
other groups also want to be seen as 'real,' 'serious' photographers.

2. Reflex development. (Ducking incoming :-) ). Yes, the R8 & 9 have THE
best viewfinder on the planet - no question. There is outstanding glass
for them. But as sales prove and have proven for some time, the market
for a manual reflex camera at a top AF reflex price is limited indeed.
Had Leica developed an AF version of the 8/9, while continuing to turn
out the MF for as long as they could financially, I believe they could
have turned the R line into a money maker. Obviously they were never
going to be a Canon or Nikon - most wouldn't want them to be. But they
could have really done things with the line that would have made it a
financial success.

3. Digital. Here, as in most areas, the company has done too little too
late. I know there are people on this list who have already ordered
their R back on faith. But what Leica has chosen to do in the digital
realm is to set out to produce a very expensive - when compared to high
quality digital cameras that are already out there (and as folks here
are finding out, work very nicely with the R glass) - back for cameras
in a line that is already losing money. And, if they hope to sell this
back to new buyers, the price of camera and back jumps into the digital
stratosphere, and doesn't begin to compare in utility to the few
digitals in that price range. 

I realize that Leica is a tiny company compared to the competition, that
it is a niche market company, and that it is a very limited R&D budget.
But perhaps all of that argued for finding  a partner/buyer 20 - or at
least 10 -years ago. As someone suggested to me off-list last night -
what if Zeiss acquired Leica. Talk about synergy.

B. D.
Not angry at Leica - but saddened by Leica.

-----Original Message-----
From: lug-bounces+bdcolen=earthlink.net@leica-users.org
[mailto:lug-bounces+bdcolen=earthlink.net@leica-users.org] On Behalf Of
Don Dory
Sent: Monday, January 24, 2005 9:33 PM
To: 'Leica Users Group'
Subject: RE: [Leica] Doomed:now a discussion of leica owners


B.D.,
Likewise, I would love to know the exact breakdown of used versus new. I
suspect a very high percentage of used for normal folk.  You are exactly
correct, the stuff lasts forever, has a high enough perceived value that
people will spend hundreds resurrecting trashed cameras, and even the
really obsolete stuff performs pretty well.

Leica held on from the seventies by bringing out better and better
product.  Now that the lenses are almost better than 95% of the users
(who is going to use 50 ISO film on a tripod with a cable release) the
almost as good serves many people very well.

The Japanese manufacturers faced this in the mid-eighties.  For many,
that old F, Spotmatic, SRT, FTb, or FT-1 served just fine to produce
nice family snaps.  Hence the drive to develop auto focus which would
obsolete all the old equipment over night.  It is almost funny that
Canon, which really did obsolete all the old stuff is winning the auto
focus, digital revolution.

However, kudos' to Leica for hanging in with the old technology for so
long.  Better optics, less flare, truly micro detail in the images.  I
really hope somebody produces a 10mp M mount camera at some reasonable
price so that I can see the lenses on digital work flow.

Don
dorysrus@mindspring.com



-----Original Message-----
From: lug-bounces+dorysrus=mindspring.com@leica-users.org
[mailto:lug-bounces+dorysrus=mindspring.com@leica-users.org] On Behalf
Of B. D. Colen
Sent: Monday, January 24, 2005 7:17 PM
To: 'Leica Users Group'
Subject: RE: [Leica] Doomed:now a discussion of leica owners

All arguments aside, Don, I'd really love to know the answer to this
one. The problem is that while Leica knows what new equipment it sells
and to whom, even Leica doesn't know what used stuff these same people
may own. And the percentage of people who have never bought a new body
or lens is probably unusually large. I know that my sample of one didn't
buy a new body or lens until the late 90s. I figure that buying a new
body makes sense because of the warranty, especially given that the
bodies now have electronics in them. But to this day the only reason I
can see for buying a new lens is that used ones aren't yet available -
the lenses last forever, and wysiwyg. 

Best
B. D.

-----Original Message-----
From: lug-bounces+bdcolen=earthlink.net@leica-users.org
[mailto:lug-bounces+bdcolen=earthlink.net@leica-users.org] On Behalf Of
Don Dory
Sent: Monday, January 24, 2005 7:01 PM
To: 'Leica Users Group'
Subject: RE: [Leica] Doomed:now a discussion of leica owners


B.D.,
I have talked to something less than 500 and more than 100 Leica owners
over the past then years or so that are not LHSA or LUG folk.  It is
truly amazing how many people own multiple cameras.  The owner of the
local gun store, the regional manager of Fuji technical services, an
architect, an agent for national talent, an owner of a very large
construction company, some guy who caught me shooting light bulbs back
lit by the sun.  The list goes on and on.

One thing that helps is that Atlanta had a very strong Leica dealer for
decades.  The owner was very dedicated and helpful as well.  I remember
him flying to Germany to pick up a 400 F2.8 for his customer.  So, I
will admit that my local area is possibly not typical.  But the same
thing happens to me in Kansas City when I visit.

:)

Don
dorysrus@mindspring.com

-----Original Message-----
From: lug-bounces+dorysrus=mindspring.com@leica-users.org
[mailto:lug-bounces+dorysrus=mindspring.com@leica-users.org] On Behalf
Of B. D. Colen
Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2005 12:14 PM
To: 'Leica Users Group'
Subject: RE: [Leica] Doomed: Leica MP 0.58x

But Don, how many people are we talking about? Sure, there are many fans
and collectors - but are we talking 500, 1000, 10,000 - world wide? I'm
sorry, but I can't believe you've personally talked to more than 100
such people - aside from LHSA and the LUG. Most people who own Leicas
are Uncle Ned's. And those who aren't have made their investments, and
are dying off. What did we figure the average age is on the LUG?
50something?

-----Original Message-----
From: lug-bounces+bdcolen=earthlink.net@leica-users.org
[mailto:lug-bounces+bdcolen=earthlink.net@leica-users.org] On Behalf Of
Don Dory
Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2005 9:19 AM
To: 'Leica Users Group'
Subject: RE: [Leica] Doomed: Leica MP 0.58x


B.D. said:

While Leica acquiring is a disease for some, I would guess - just as you
have guessed - that most Leica owners have a single body and own, at
absolute most, three lenses; I'd guess most owners have one or two. 

Actually, that has not been my experience at all with living people.
Yes, when someone asks about Uncle Ned's old camera he brought back from
Germany, they are only talking about a single camera/lens.

However, I could go on for a very long time about individuals that I
thought on the surface were normal seeming but have quite a few Leicas
stashed away.  Perhaps it is a southern thing and the more frugal
NEasters only have a body and a lens or two.  What is more interesting,
is that these individuals have no interest in selling their cameras or
lenses.

The proverbial story about the SL2 losing so much money that Leica
needed to sell three lenses with every body to break even could have an
interesting twist.  There are a whole bunch of old bodies that might
need new lenses.  C/V has proved that a modest price point we will buy a
few lenses just to try out.  If Leica could ever sort out their
production and both fill demand and lower cost then they might sell more
items.

I guess I am suggesting that some production move to a lower cost of
business location.  Lower price, more product sold, less cost per item
to amortize R&D, lower price yet.

Back to my original rant err slant, if I did a survey of all the non LUG
or LHSA people I know who own and use Leica's, it would probably come
out to three bodies and seven lenses as an average.  The actual break
out would include a LTM, and two M's or alternately an SL, R, and a P&S.
In other words, a wide assortment of camera's purchased over the years.

Don
dorysrus@mindspring.com




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Replies: Reply from pdzwig at summaventures.com (Peter Dzwig) ([Leica] Doomed:now a discussion of leica owners)
In reply to: Message from dorysrus at mindspring.com (Don Dory) ([Leica] Doomed:now a discussion of leica owners)