Archived posting to the Leica Users Group, 2005/01/24
[Author Prev] [Author Next] [Thread Prev] [Thread Next] [Author Index] [Topic Index] [Home] [Search]Wonderful engineer's dreams, Douglas, but 1., they require an innovative, risk-taking company. Beyond that they require that a company have enormous manufacturing and capital resources; and two, the damn things would sell for $10K plus and there's not much market for that. -----Original Message----- From: lug-bounces+bdcolen=earthlink.net@leica-users.org [mailto:lug-bounces+bdcolen=earthlink.net@leica-users.org] On Behalf Of Douglas M.Sharp Sent: Monday, January 24, 2005 8:53 AM To: Leica Users Group Subject: Re: [Leica] Doomed: Leica MP 0.58x Scott, what Leica needs to do is make a basic M style chassis with modular digital components which can be updated or upgraded whenever the user or advances in technology demand it. Imagine a choice of sensors, an off-camera viewing screen (any size you like!) with a a couple of Gigabytes storage too. You didn't preview on a film M so why do it on a digi-M? With raw format you get all the advantages of a negative/slide/darkroom anyway. Replaceable software chips or updates are no problem either. I never saw any real point in trying to put components for every possible option into a camera so let the user choose his/her frame size, resolution, ISO range or whatever. As long as the chassis has the Leica feeling,quality and longevity we know and love, and the lenses remain the same, the camera is a real Leica. Just plug in the bits you need and away you go. Douglas Scott McLoughlin wrote: > B.D. > > These are excellent points. Your focus on digital is appropriate. > Film > cameras have > a long lifetime, and while I believe cranking the prices up further on > the existing M > bodies is ill conceived, the price is perhaps justified for by the build > quality and > longevity of the camera. I still believe there is a lower price point > entry-level > opportunity for Leica in film, yes - similar to Zeiss. All else being > equal, right > now most folks would pick a Leica film body over a Zeiss equivalent > given the > choice. Leica is not giving new buyers that choice. > > > But yes, digital is the real opportunity. The problem, well discussed > on > this list, is > that customers do not perceive that a digital body will have a useful > life many > decades long. Leica needs to deliver (1) a product (2) at a price > appropriate to > the new technology to attract new customers. Leica needs to price a > digital M > body at a price appropriate to rapid depreciation over five years. > > We must admit - this is really different from the typical Leica modus > operandi. > Yes, the lenses should have a longer shelf life. M-mount is the way to > go. But > if creating a new family of wides, for example, optimized for the new > digital > platform is more cost effective than delaying production in order to > support > every SA out there - then so be it. > > Ultimately, as you note, Leica's customer base is aging and dying off. > Leica must > somehow reach out to a new generation of customer in order to survive. > I'm 38 > years old and snagged my first 2 M6's this year to support my photo > hobby. I love > the product. Wandering about the world (perhaps a well heeled portion of > the world, > I'll admit), numerous people note my Leica gear and express their own > wishes to > own Leica gear. Leica needs to make this possible and somehow manage to > take > their money at a profit. > > If this requires new partnerships, manufacturing methods, product > design > and pricing , > reconfiguring the dealer network and so on the market and support such a > product > for a new generation of buyers - then so be it. Serving only the > existing customer base > is a plan for certain eventual demise. > > No, I do not envision Leica gear sitting next to the digicams at Best > Buy. But even a > company that markets premium, boutique products must change with the times, > attract new customers and ultimately grow sales and profits. > > Scott > > B. D. Colen wrote: > >> There are two big problems with this analysis, Scott - >> 1. In terms of suggesting that the way to go - film and digital - is >> with drastically lower price points, etc.: The company you're >> describing isn't Leica; never has been, never will be. If Leica can >> put out a Leica quality $1500 body, and $750-$1500 lenses, the move >> begs two questions - a. Why not just buy Cosina or Zeiss? Two, what >> the hell have they been doing ripping us off all these years? ;-) 2. >> The landscape is not littered with people waiting to jump into the >> world of film. The world of film is the Titanic with it's stern in >> the air; most people have already made it into the digital boats, or >> have slipped into the ocean, and there is a handful of diehards >> clinging to the stern rail screaming "film forever!" The question is >> not how to attract new masses to Leica, it's how to hang on to the >> fanboys (and >> girls) and what kind of digital product to introduce to hopefully >> capture a new user base. >> >> Oh, and as to the idea of an M that requires new lenses - good >> bleeping luck. The only thing that will now draw people to a Leica >> digital RF - well, will draw the people who are NOT prepared to buy >> everything Leica builds simply because it has the name Leica on it - >> is a desire to use the lenses in which they have invested so much >> money, and which are clearly high quality. But an entirely new >> digital product that requires all new lenses - at Leica prices? No >> way. >> >> B. D. >> -----Original Message----- >> From: lug-bounces+bdcolen=earthlink.net@leica-users.org >> [mailto:lug-bounces+bdcolen=earthlink.net@leica-users.org] On Behalf >> Of Scott McLoughlin >> Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2005 2:55 AM >> To: Leica Users Group >> Subject: Re: [Leica] Doomed: Leica MP 0.58x >> >> >> This is on target. >> >> -1- Leica has a great product and a great brand. Folks want them. P&S >> scale market? >> No way. But lots of serious amateurs sitting on the sidelines of the >> Leica shooting >> experience. >> >> -2- The product price is just too high. Too high for what? Too high >> for contemporary >> customer expectations of camera and lens prices. >> >> -3- If Leica can make a good product at a lower price, their customer >> base will >> expand. They have the potential to move more product. What are those >> prices? Don't >> know, needs research. Maybe a $1.5K new body. $750 - $1.5K lenses. At >> customer-perceived reasonable (but still premium) prices, Leica will >> move bodies and >> glass. >> >> -4- Zeiss will be hitting roughly the right price point IMHO. If >> Zeiss >> can show their >> commitment to the product line, that they're in it for the long haul, >> that they'll deliver >> upgraded product over time - then Zeiss will capture many folks >> waiting on the >> sidelines for an affordable RF experience. >> >> -5- Leica's job is to deliver truly quality product at a lower price. >> They can deliver >> quality without virtually hand manufacturing the things in >> Portugal/Germany. They need >> to do whatever it takes. >> >> -6- Leica needs to deliver a more than credible RF, exchangable lens >> digital camera. >> Should be M mount, but IMHO, doesn't have to be (I'd like it to be). >> A $5K digital >> M body will be DOA. The point of a digital body is to catch up, grow >> the customer >> base and start moving more glass. >> >> -7- Again, Leica has a great product and brand. There is demand. But >> the >> >> prices are >> skyrocketing out of control, and Leica reeks of imminent morbidity. >> -8- I love Leica stuff. I've been buying near mint chrome M6TTL's and >> used recent lenses for reasonable prices and feeling somewhat guilty >> for not buying new gear from Leica/dealers. Leica needs to bring >> Leica buyers back into a relationship >> with the company. >> >> Scott >> >> >> Feli wrote: >> >> >> >>> You're right. They need to do something and when it comes to glass >>> they are king. If they could manage to make their lenses in Canon >>> mount with >>> >> >> automatic >> >> >>> stop down metering, they would sell a bundle. But I doubt that their >>> pride would allow them >>> to do so. >>> >>> The other problem i see is that Leica gear is simply too expensive. >>> I have friends who were interested in buying an M, but when they saw >>> the price tag they dropped the idea. >>> But I am not sure how to solve that. Move production out of Germany? >>> >>> Whatever they do, they need a digital M camera asap and it needs to >>> be a killer piece of gear. Full frame, minimum of 12MP, weather >>> sealed, aimed at professionals.. I don't care of it doesn't use all, >>> or none of the current lenses. Canon screwed everyone when they >>> changed mounts >>> >> >> >> >> >>> and after the riots died down everything was ok. People who make a >>> living with their gear will drop the money on it if it's the right >>> tool for the job at hand. I've talked to several production >>> photographers, and almost all of them would buy one, because they need >>> >> >> >> >> >>> a compact, quiet camera, with fast lenses that works well in the >>> dark. >>> >>> I also think they should team up with someone and license the guts >>> of a good 8MP SLR and produce it with an R-mount. Make two models, >>> one for $1500 and >>> >> >> >> >> >>> a sturdier one for more. >>> >>> I think Hasselblad is being a lot smarter about the future than >>> Leica and if they don't do something soon they are going to be >>> finished. But >>> >> >> >> >> >>> I would also bet that at that point ,they get bought by a big >>> Japanese >>> >> >> >> >> >>> firm... >>> >>> >>> feli >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Jan 21, 2005, at 9:59 AM, B. D. Colen wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>> Ah, but wouldn't Leica be ahead of the game working out a deal with >>>> Canon, where by Canon would get some sort of licensing fee for each >>>> lens sold in a working Canon mount? >>>> >>>> The point is that Leica needs to do SOMETHING if it's going to >>>> survive. Producing an extremely expensive digital backs for an R line >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> that is already losing money - as wonderful as the cameras may be - >>>> isn't going to be the thing that saves Leica. And, as Frank pointed >>>> out, Leica's reputation lays with it's glass. There has to be a way >>>> for them to capitalize on that. >>>> >>>> Why don't they start advertising the glass for use with adapters on >>>> Canon EOS bodies? Use photos and endorsements from life-long Leica >>>> shooters... >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________________ >>> feli2@earthlink.net 2 + 2 = 4 >>> www.elanphotos.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Leica Users Group. >>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information >>> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Leica Users Group. >> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Leica Users Group. >> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Leica Users Group. > See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information > > _______________________________________________ Leica Users Group. See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information