Archived posting to the Leica Users Group, 2004/11/09
[Author Prev] [Author Next] [Thread Prev] [Thread Next] [Author Index] [Topic Index] [Home] [Search]Hi, Seth - I have said many times that I suspect there will be film around during our life-times. The fact that Kodak and Fuji will continue to manufacture film is hardly surprising, given the number of film cameras out there. Far more telling however - and even I find it astonishing - is your friend's experience. That is the reality. Beyond that, digital appeals top far more than editors and P&S throw-away freaks. In fact, many editors have been resisting digital - particularly magazine editors. Digital doesn't appeal to people because it symbolizes anything - it appeals to people because it gives the overwhelming majority as good or better results than they got with film, cheaper and faster than they got those film results. You seem to forget that most people don't shoot 25 iso slide film with Leica Ms using the latest aspheric lenses - they shoot with disposable film cameras (speaking of throw-away) and with point-and-shoots costing less than $100. The real digital story is that digital delivers on the never-quite-fulfilled promise of Polaroid - it's true instant photography. And, as I mentioned in my response to Mark Rabiner, with the arrival of the new Epson, Canon - and I just saw an ad in this morning's paper for a similar product from Dell - people are being offered their own 4x6 'labs' for about $150! If you're not a Leicaphile, or someone who has a real need for film, or an artistic interest in it, why would you want film when you can have a $150 appliance at home that for $.29 a print cranks out 4x6s every bit as good or better than the 4x6s you got at the corner lab - that were often pretty crappy, dust covered, and scratched? As to shooting film and scanning - which I did for about five years, yes, it's a great way to go if you want to shoot film. I still do it on occasion, and I'm sure I will continue to do it for some time to come. It does not, however, offer many of the benefits of digital that go beyond cost and speed - but those sure are huge, important benefits of digital. I think that those of you for whom money is less of a concern than it is for most people greatly underestimate the importance of cost in this film-digital equation. I shoot professionally, but when it comes to my personal shooting, cost is an enormous part of the equation; I have to think about my son's college tuition, and all my other expenses, when I shoot for myself. And digital allows me to totally ignore the cost part of photography - I can carry a camera with me all the time and shoot my brains out - without spending a penny. I am definitely shooting more now that I am shooting digital than I was shooting when I was primarily using film. And the more I shoot for myself, the better my photography for clients gets - and the more my digital bw work looks like my film bw work. ;-) Yes, Seth, film will be around as long as we will - but with every passing year it will become more and more exotic and, I suspect, more expensive. Just as the price of digital storage and printing is dropping, and will continue to drop up to a certain point, so the cost of film and processing it will continue to rise. If you like film, shoot it. Enjoy it. Revel in it. But don't allow your personal enjoyment to keep you from seeing the reality that we are living through one of those major moments in the technical history of photography in which the medium of photography moves from one form of image capture and storage to another. B. D. -----Original Message----- From: lug-bounces+bdcolen=earthlink.net@leica-users.org [mailto:lug-bounces+bdcolen=earthlink.net@leica-users.org] On Behalf Of Seth Rosner Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2004 8:39 AM To: Leica Users Group Subject: Re: [Leica] Summilux vs. Summicron Hi B.D.: At the LHSA Leica Akademie meeting last week, I sat next to a member who said that in New Zealand recently, he couldn't find a place to buy film and had to buy a cheap digital to record his trip; added that film would be dead in two years. The following day Karen Sweet, Kodak representative, gave a power-point presentation on Kodak's doings in imaging, both film and digital. An astonishing array of world-class digital products and an equally astonishing array of up-dated old and brand new professional film emulsions, in 35mm and other formats. During her talk and the ensuing q&a I could not help thinking of you. Take a look at the Kodak website for their film palette. Then talk about film's demise. It is clear that professionals and editors to whom speed and ease of transmission is critical are working, perhaps close to exclusively, in digital. Equally clear that a majority of p&s consumers in the west will choose digital for its ease and cheapness, and because it almost symbolizes the disposable, throw-away world we live in. IMHO, Ted's current methodology is the very best combination of quality and ease: film capture, then scan, edit and print digitally. My strong bet: neither Kodak nor Fuji will leave the film business in our lifetimes. Seth LaK 9 Had a wonderful time; wish you were her. ;-) Seth LaK 9 ----- Original Message ----- From: "B. D. Colen" <bdcolen@earthlink.net> To: "'Leica Users Group'" <lug@leica-users.org> Sent: Monday, November 08, 2004 10:48 PM Subject: RE: [Leica] Summilux vs. Summicron > First off, Marc, while I like the E-1, I wouldn't lose a nanosecond's > sleep if digital turned out to be the passing fancy, or whatever it is > some of you seem to believe it is. I love film, love my Ms. Just like > the people who loved their daguerreotypes loved those plates, and just > like the speed graphic shooters loved their film holders. > > But as much as I hate to burst your bubble, film is indeed dying. Tell > the folks at Ilford and Kodak that film isn't dying. Of course there > are sixteen trillion film cameras out there. But that has nothing to > do with whether film is dying. I'm sure you'll go on shooting film > until the day you die, but that doesn't mean that it isn't the > previous capture medium. The question isn't how many film cameras > still exist, the important question is - at what rate is the number of > digital cameras increasing every six months, and how does that compare > to the number of film cameras being sold? > > As to the Nikon F6 - Yes indeed, it is due out - and I will place > money on the fact that Nikon will, within 12 months of the > introduction of the F6, announce a digital back for it - probably a > full-frame digital back as they don't have one yet. No major camera > company - other than Leica - will introduce a pro film camera that is > not also a digital camera. For Gds sake, Nikon F5s and Canon EOS1ns > are being virtually given away these days. > > Another sign of the ascendency of digital is the printers that Epson > and Canon are now churning out for the home market that crank out 4x6s > at apx .$29 a piece - just pop in your CF card, or hook up your > camera, and print away - no computer necessary, no knowledge of > photoshop necessary. Your own "60 minute" photolab in on your own > kitchen table. > > Yes, the reality is that film is now the domain of hobbiests, a small > number of documentary photographers and some art photographers. Kids > aren't buying film point and shoots now Mark - they're buying digital > P&Ss and camera cell phones. > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: lug-bounces+bdcolen=earthlink.net@leica-users.org > [mailto:lug-bounces+bdcolen=earthlink.net@leica-users.org] On Behalf > Of Mark Rabiner > Sent: Monday, November 08, 2004 9:24 PM > To: Leica Users Group > Subject: Re: [Leica] Summilux vs. Summicron > > > On 11/8/04 3:52 PM, "B. D. Colen" <bdcolen@earthlink.net> typed: > >> That used to be the beauty, Vic. But alas, with the dying of film, it >> is no longer true. While Leica equipment may hold its value better >> than most film equipment, it is no longer holding it the way it did >> even a year ago. M6 TTLs purchased for $1995 were selling for about >> $1450 in near mint condition - now they're down to about $1150 - if >> you're lucky- and used M7s, which are now selling for, what, around >> $2800, are only worth approximately 50% of their new priced once >> they've been driven off the lot. So if you're going to invest $2500 >> in > >> a 50 1.4 lens, you damn well better love that lens. ;-) >> > > Film is not dying BD. > I think its great you are on a roll with your Olympus E but lets keep > our perspective on the whole thing. The film market is being moderated > or minimized. AS there are other technological options which appear > more popular for many uses. That's all. > > There are 10 billion (last count) cameras out there which all use film > to take pictures and plenty of people who are going to want to use > them for quite some time. > > The Nikon F6 is due out soon. > New film cameras are being introduced every day. > > And the ones made last year still work. > > > > > Mark Rabiner > Photography > Portland Oregon > http://rabinergroup.com/ > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Leica Users Group. > See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information > > _______________________________________________ > Leica Users Group. > See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information > _______________________________________________ Leica Users Group. See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information