Archived posting to the Leica Users Group, 2004/10/01

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Subject: [Leica] Re: New Zeiss Ikon
From: gregj.lorenzo at shaw.ca (GREG LORENZO)
Date: Fri Oct 1 08:23:26 2004

For an even better explanation of snobbery see: 
http://www.thesocialedge.com/archives/gerrymccarthy/2articles-dec2002.htm

Regards,

Greg

> Hey, Simon...The statement anyone makes with branded accessories
> is..."Look at me"...If one owns a Ferrari, and one really owns it
> because one loves fast, hot cars, one doesn't need all the branded
> accessories. On the other hand, if one owns it to make up for some
> deficiency, then wants to yell to the world, "Look at me! I am really,
> really hot shit!! I can afford to own a 
> ...Ferrari/Leica/Rollex/case of
> Budweiser... ;-)"
> 
> I have always avoided branded stuff...Either I like and need the item,
> or I don't...
> 
> This really is one of those amusing, ironic, LUG moments...Because 
> I can
> remember all the discussion over the years that could be summed up 
> withthe line, to paraphrase James Carvil..."It's the glass, 
> stupid!" People
> on this list have always told us that a body is just a box onto which
> one mounts the incomparable Leica glass. So if some other manufacturer
> can give me a really good quality M mount body, which will take my 35
> Summ ASPH, or my 28 Summicron ASPH, great! I'd rather save $500 or $1K
> on the body and be able to put it into film or glass. 
> 
> Bottom line - Anyone who would even think about what other people 
> wouldthink if they saw a Noctilux - or any other lens - on a less 
> expensivebody - is more concerned about their own image than about 
> the images the
> lens produces.  ;-)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: lug-bounces+bdcolen=earthlink.net@leica-users.org
> [lug-bounces+bdcolen=earthlink.net@leica-users.org] On Behalf Of
> animal
> Sent: Friday, October 01, 2004 4:55 AM
> To: Leica Users Group
> Subject: Re: [Leica] Re: New Zeiss Ikon
> 
> 
> Hi, B.D. Well a lot of literature states that a retrofocus design like
> that of the Schneider? R lens is better suited in principle but i dont
> know for sure. The way people make statements with their acessories
> cannot be ignored i mean Ferrari owners don,t make a statement with
> their driving skills do they? simon
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "B. D. Colen" <bdcolen@earthlink.net>
> To: "'Leica Users Group'" <lug@leica-users.org>
> Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 11:05 PM
> Subject: RE: [Leica] Re: New Zeiss Ikon
> 
> 
> > Hi, Simon - Obviously I don't know the answer to the last 
> question, 
> > although someone earlier suggested that the Zeiss designs might 
> indeed
> > be better suited to use with digital sensor cropping. No, I 
> wouldn't 
> > expect Leica people will switch - why should they? The question 
> is 
> > whether Zeiss can grow the market. As to mount a Noct on a Zeiss 
> and 
> > what kind of statement does it make? Gee, I thought we make our 
> > statements with our photos, and not with our brand names....And 
> if the
> 
> > Zeiss is as good as an M but cheaper, I'd be happy to tell 
> people that
> 
> > I'm not stupid enough to pay extra just to get a red dot. ;-) 
> Or, put 
> > another way I'd be happy to tell people that what matters is the 
> > glass, and by purchasing the cheaper body I could afford the 
> expensive
> > lens. Best B. D.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: lug-bounces+bdcolen=earthlink.net@leica-users.org
> > [lug-bounces+bdcolen=earthlink.net@leica-users.org] On Behalf 
> > Of animal
> > Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 4:11 PM
> > To: Leica Users Group
> > Subject: Re: [Leica] Re: New Zeiss Ikon
> >
> >
> > I didn,t try to engage you in a discussion about lens 
> performance 
> > data. Your 4.5 versus 2.8 remark deflates my Voigh.. remark 
> obviously 
> > . I just believe that if the lenses are not better then Leica's 
> people
> > will not make a switch. Also to me the newborn doesn,t look as 
> nice as
> 
> > a M. Another good reason not to buy one. Significantly brighter 
> > viewfinder would be nice of course. But mount a Noctilux on a 
> Zeiss? 
> > What kind of statement does that make other then i don,t want to 
> spend
> > a thousand more on a real Leica? Would the new lenses be better 
> suited
> > for a full frame digital sensor?
> >
> > best regards
> > simon
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "B. D. Colen" <bdcolen@earthlink.net>
> > To: "'Leica Users Group'" <lug@leica-users.org>
> > Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 12:30 AM
> > Subject: RE: [Leica] Re: New Zeiss Ikon
> >
> >
> > > I'm not going to get into one of the lpm debates with you, 
> Simon - 
> > > you
> >
> > > and I view these issues, and photography, from very different 
> > > perspectives.
> > >
> > > And, yes, why not use a Cosina 15? Well, it's an f 4.5 and 
> this will
> 
> > > be a 2.8; it's seat-of-the-pants focused and this will be 
> > > rangefinder coupled; and my guess is this will have a better 
> build -
> 
> > > all valid reasons even if image quality were no better. But 
> I'm 
> > > certainly not against good image quality.
> > >
> > > B. D.
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: lug-bounces+bdcolen=earthlink.net@leica-users.org
> > > [lug-bounces+bdcolen=earthlink.net@leica-users.org] On Behalf
> 
> > > Of animal
> > > Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2004 6:22 PM
> > > To: Leica Users Group
> > > Subject: Re: [Leica] Re: New Zeiss Ikon
> > >
> > >
> > > Well if performance is no factor then why not stay with the 
> existing
> > > cosina lenses like their 15mm,or put a sublime old 15 mm on a R?
> > >
> > > simon
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "B. D. Colen" <bdcolen@earthlink.net>
> > > To: "'Leica Users Group'" <lug@leica-users.org>
> > > Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 12:10 AM
> > > Subject: RE: [Leica] Re: New Zeiss Ikon
> > >
> > >
> > > > But that's the point, Simon - I'm not talking about 
> "performance" 
> > > > of
> >
> > > > anything; I'm talking about availability of, and price of, 
> > > > product. And if Leica thinks the path to survival lays 
> through 
> > > > winning a bunch of Erwin Puts bench tests by .xxx%, they're 
> dead 
> > > > on arrival. Fractions
> > >
> > > > of percentages aren't going to matter - actually having a 
> product 
> > > > will. If Leica can now turn on a dime and put out a real 
> digital M
> 
> > > > six
> > >
> > > > months from now - BEFORE Zeiss comes out with one - and 
> price it 
> > > > so that it appeals to more than a handful of people for whom 
> money
> > > > is no object, then they have a chance. If not...
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: lug-bounces+bdcolen=earthlink.net@leica-users.org
> > > > [lug-bounces+bdcolen=earthlink.net@leica-users.org] On 
> > > > Behalf
> >
> > > > Of animal
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2004 5:54 PM
> > > > To: Leica Users Group
> > > > Subject: Re: [Leica] Re: New Zeiss Ikon
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > As you mentioned earlier i think ,nothing  is known about 
> the real
> 
> > > > performance of the new system. Isn,t it a bit premature to 
> anounce
> > > > a
> >
> > > > winner before a match? best regards simon jessurun amsterdam
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "B. D. Colen" <bdcolen@earthlink.net>
> > > > To: "'Leica Users Group'" <lug@leica-users.org>
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2004 10:53 PM
> > > > Subject: RE: [Leica] Re: New Zeiss Ikon
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > IF that's Leica's response to an entire line of new Zeiss 
> t-star
> 
> > > > > lenses, a film rangefinder body, and what will undoubtedly 
> be a 
> > > > > digital body, then we most assuredly have the answer to 
> the 
> > > > > question. Because if Leica survives as the Hermes of 
> cameraland,
> > > > > it might as well not survive.
> > > > >
> > > > > And there's another point to think about here, folks - 
> Leica is 
> > > > > still around today for only one reason:
> > > > >
> > > > > In the early 1960s, Zeiss/Contax and Nikon abandoned the 
> > > > > pro-rangefinder playing field. Nikon, which made what was 
> > > > > definitely
> > >
> > > > > the best body at that time - the SP - decided to put all 
> its 
> > > > > eggs in
> > >
> > > > > the SLR basket, a decision which was a loss for those of 
> us who 
> > > > > love
> > >
> > > > > rangefinders, but was obviously a winner for Nikon. And 
> Contax 
> > > > > must have decided that there wasn't going to be enough 
> > > > > rangefinder
> >
> > > > > business
> > > >
> > > > > to keep them going.
> > > > >
> > > > > So that left the barren playing field to Leica, which, 
> other 
> > > > > than improving it's lens line, hasn't done anything truly 
> > > > > innovative since bringing out and abandoning the M5. And, 
> when 
> > > > > you think about it, really hasn't done anything innovative 
> since
> > > > > the "O."
> > > > >
> > > > > But because there have been enough photographers committed 
> to 
> > > > > using rangefinders, and enough dilitants committed to 
> owning 
> > > > > Leicas - and a scarf company willing to buy up a grand old 
> brand
> > > > > name - Leica's limped along to the present day.
> > > > >
> > > > > Now, however, we are on the downward slope of the 
> technology 
> > > > > range
> >
> > > > > taking us into the next age of photography. Any company 
> that 
> > > > > wants
> >
> > > > > to survive in the new age is going to have to be a real 
> part of 
> > > > > that
> > >
> > > > > age.
> > > >
> > > > > And up to this point, Leica has, as usual, limped along at 
> the 
> > > > > back end of the parade.
> > > > >
> > > > > So this time Zeiss - well the 
> Zeiss/Kyocera/Hassleblad/Contax 
> > > > > coalition
> > > > > - has decided to stick around and pickup  the pieces. 
> Unless 
> > > > > Leica
> >
> > > > > is prepared to move, and move very quickly - perhaps by 
> talking 
> > > > > Nikon, Canon, or Olympus into a rangefinder partnership, 
> Leica's
> > > > > days are, sadly, very much numbered. I say "sadly" with 
> total 
> > > > > sincerity, because
> > > > I
> > > > > am enough of a traditionalist to be touched by the Leica 
> > > > > heritage
> > > > > -
> > > > I'd
> > > > > rather be shooting in a new age with a grandchild of HCB's 
> M3s, 
> > > > > than
> > >
> > > > > shooting with a Kocerstein's monster patched together with 
> parts
> > > > > from
> > > > a
> > > > > washing machine, a high-milage care, and a disposable 
> camera. 
> > > > > :-)
> > > > >
> > > > > B. D.
> > > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: lug-bounces+bdcolen=earthlink.net@leica-users.org
> > > > > [lug-bounces+bdcolen=earthlink.net@leica-users.org] On 
> > > > > Behalf
> > >
> > > > > Of Dan C
> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2004 4:33 PM
> > > > > To: Leica Users Group
> > > > > Subject: RE: [Leica] Re: New Zeiss Ikon
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Leica has responded in part by offering the a la carte 
> Leica.  
> > > > > But
> >
> > > > > have you
> > > > > seen the prices?    Do I really want to spend upwards of 
> $4,000> USD
> > > > for
> > > > > the
> > > > > privilege of picking the colour of my camera?  Are there 
> enough 
> > > > > people
> > > >
> > > > > out there willing to do so to keep Leica afloat?
> > > > >
> > > > > -dan c.
> > > > >
> > > > > At 04:26 PM 29-09-04 -0400, B. D. Colen wrote:
> > > > > >Emanuel says..
> > > > > >"The old era of Zeiss - Leitz rivalry was a heady time 
> for 35mm
> 
> > > > > >design," and asks...
> > > > > >
> > > > > >"Now, in these days, how will Leica respond?"
> > > > > >
> > > > > >---
> > > > > >As they, sadly, always have ... With too little, too 
> late, and 
> > > > > >at
> >
> > > > > >too
> > > >
> > > > > >high a price.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >These are not the heady days of the Zeiss/Leitz 
> competition - 
> > > > > >which, if
> > > > >
> > > > > >we recall, were actually the days of the 
> Zeiss/Leitz/Nikon 
> > > > > >competition.
> > > > > >;-)
> > > > > >
> > > > > >These are the days of the Zeiss/Kyocera/Cosina/Hassie 
> > > > > >consortium moving
> > > > >
> > > > > >in to clean up the remaining scraps from the rangefinder 
> table 
> > > > > >- scraps
> > > > >
> > > > > >that could have been Leicas had Leica moved 18 months 
> ago, or 
> > > > > >even further back, when the Cosina handwriting was writ 
> large 
> > > > > >upon the wall.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Leica Users Group.
> > > > > See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more 
> > > > > information
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Leica Users Group.
> > > > > See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more 
> > > > > information
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Leica Users Group.
> > > > See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more 
> > > > information
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Leica Users Group.
> > > > See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more 
> > > > information
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Leica Users Group.
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> information>
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> >
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> 
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