Archived posting to the Leica Users Group, 2002/05/15
[Author Prev] [Author Next] [Thread Prev] [Thread Next] [Author Index] [Topic Index] [Home] [Search]Thank you B.D. you at least have indicated that discussion on this topic and airing different opinions had some value....which was my main point. Just out of curriosity, I'd like your opinion on something. Go to www.photo.net/photodb/folder?folder_id=203196 Three photos here were altered. The two Long Beach Island photos had items eliminated. The one with the lighter sky had two people in the far distance (that appeared at specs in the photo) eliminated. The one with the darker sky had an old wine bottle on the beach eliminated. The third photo changed was the one of the swans. I took out a cigarette butt on the stones that to me detracted from the shot. In your view, does this now mean these are not photographs any longer? - --- "B. D. Colen" <bdcolen@earthlink.net> wrote: > True, Karina - God forbid we have long, drawn-out > discussions here of > matters of vital import to those truly interested in > the future of > photography. Let's waste our time instead chattering > on and on about our > puppies, kittens, drinking habits, and the songs we > listened to in 1973. ;-) > > B. D. > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-leica-users@mejac.palo-alto.ca.us > [mailto:owner-leica-users@mejac.palo-alto.ca.us]On > Behalf Of > kiklaas@iinet.net.au > Sent: Tuesday, May 14, 2002 9:28 PM > To: leica-users@mejac.palo-alto.ca.us > Subject: RE: [Leica] Re: Photoshop dilemma > > > Darrell, > > Do not get involved in a long drawn out debate with > B.D - been there, done > that - "it's like fighting for peace". > > Conserve your energy for the things that give you > the most pleasure. > > Karina > > "When in the trenches, it is not the rank that > counts." > > > > No I haven't been on the list very long. About > six > > weeks so far. > > > > B.D. I do grasp what you are trying to say. The > > fact that I don't agree with your point of view > > doesn't mean I don't understand it. I just draw > the > > line between photography and a peice of graphic > art at > > a different spont than you and some others. > > > > The reason I have continued the dialog is that I > think > > it is a difficult subject to get consensus on, and > you > > and I taking opposing roles in the discussion may > get > > us and others to think about where the line > between a > > photo and a piece of graphic art is. I suspect > that > > the line is hard to define, and a bit different > for > > everyone. We can probably all agree on the > extremes, > > but the shades of grey in between that are hard to > > agree on. > > > > Examples: > > 1.If you merge two photos of the same group of > people > > and same pose to get the best expression on each > > persons face, is it now not a photograph? > > > > 2.If you delete a person from a photograph is it > now > > not a photograph? Does your answer change > depending > > on how prominent the person is in the original > photo? > > What about if the person was a tiny spec in the > > background? > > > > 3.If a photo journalist alters a photo, but not > the > > truth it portrays is it not a photograph? If a > > advertisment has an altered photograph to try to > more > > effectively get us to buy something is it not a > > photograph? Why are the standards different for > many > > of us on these two examples? > > > > 4.How would your critique of Sonny's photo with > the > > wagon change by knowing he had put two photos > > together? > > > > These may seem like picking nits, but are probably > > important if we are trying to interact with each > other > > on some common basis. > > > > BTW: What I objected to in your response was you > > appeared to dismiss my view because of my limited > > experience with Photoshop...which I see as > irrelevant > > to this discussion. We aren't discussing > Photoshop, we > > are discussing photography, an area where I have > > pretty deep experience having been a photographer > for > > almost 30 years. > > > > As far as Uelsmann, there are enough gallery > owners > > and museum curators that think he is a photogapher > > (plus I believe he is a professor of photography > at a > > university in Florida) that you should at least > agree > > that there are a range of differing opinions on > the > > subject. > > > > I have no problem with differing oppinions. I do > have > > a problem with lack of respect. If we can't show > > respect in dealing with each other then we have > > greatly diminished the value of the interaction. > And I > > don't believe you lessen the impact of a barb by > > putting a wink on the end of it... > > > > I hear and respect your opinion. I don't agree > with > > it, but I don't have to. I think it is interesting > > enough that there are extreme points of view to > merit > > discussion and thought by the group. DJ > > > > --- B. D. Colen <bdcolen@earthlink.net> wrote: > > > First, try reading what I have written, and you > will > > > see that I have never, > > > in any post on this subject, suggested that > > > photographers can't be artists. > > > > > > Second, if you think that my comments have > > > constituted personal attacks on > > > you you haven't been on this list very long. ;-) > > > > > > Next, as to the subject at hand = > > > > > > I agree with you completely that there are > > > photographers who are artists, > > > and photographers who are craftsmen. Where we > > > disagree, Darrell, and what > > > you seem unable to grasp, is that in the view of > > > many photographers, someone > > > who builds artistic pieces out of photographic > > > images is not producing > > > photographs, but rather is producing works of > art > > > built from photographic > > > images. That artist may well be a photographer, > who > > > in addition to producing > > > photographs, also uses his or her own > photographs as > > > materials with which to > > > do other kinds of art: but the fact that the > person > > > is a photographer does > > > not mean that the images they produce through > > > construction/alteration > > > methods are what we speak of when we call > something > > > a photograph. > > > > > > And, similarly, a photographer who produces what > are > > > called photographs may > > > be an artist, or may be a craftsman - but that > > > judgment would probably be > > > made on the quality/originality/artistic merit > of > > > their work, not on whether > > > it is or is not manipulated beyond the ways in > which > > > one normally > > > manipulates photographic images in the printing > > > process. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: owner-leica-users@mejac.palo-alto.ca.us > > > > [mailto:owner-leica-users@mejac.palo-alto.ca.us]On > > > Behalf Of Darrell > > > Jennings > > > Sent: Monday, May 13, 2002 10:21 PM > > > To: leica-users@mejac.palo-alto.ca.us > > > Subject: RE: [Leica] Re: Photoshop dilemma > > > > > > > > > There are photographers that are artists, and > > > photographers that are craftsmen. I think there > is > > > room for both. You obviously don't and can only > > > respond by a personal attack on me...pretty > > > unprofessional in my view. > > > > > > --- B. D. Colen <bdcolen@earthlink.net> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: owner-leica-users@mejac.palo-alto.ca.us > > > > > [mailto:owner-leica-users@mejac.palo-alto.ca.us]On > > > > Behalf Of Darrell > > > > Jennings > > > > Sent: Monday, May 13, 2002 1:16 PM > > > > To: leica-users@mejac.palo-alto.ca.us > > > > Subject: RE: [Leica] Re: Photoshop dilemma > > > > > > > > > > > > And I completely disagree.... I am NOT a > > > Photoshop > > > > expert. In fact I had never scanned a photo > > > before > > > > two weeks ago, and only have Photoshop > Elements > > > > which > > > > I have very limited expertise with. > > > > > > > > That said, I don't limit my view of > photography by > > > > expecting that what I see in a photo is > exactly > > > what > > > > was there. There are many great photographs > that > > > > were > > > > enhanced by use of filters and traditional > > > darkroom > > > > techniques. I don't see Photoshop or it's > > > > competitors > > > > as different than that, they've just gone > another > > > > step. In fact photographers like Jerry > Uelsmann > > > have > > > > done very altered realities for many years > without > > > > using a computer to do so (check out > > > > www.uelsmann.net > > > > for examples). I still see this kind of work > as > > > > photography. > > > > > > > > ------------------ > > > > > > > > Well then, given that you have been scanning > and > > > > using Photoshop elements > > > > for two full weeks, and given the fact that > you > > > > consider a cut and paste > > > > image of lips emerging from a dirt road a > > > > photographs, I guess there's > > > > really nothing I can add to the discussion.;-) > > > > > > > > B. D. > > > > > > > > -- > > > > To unsubscribe, see > > > > http://mejac.palo-alto.ca.us/leica-users/unsub.html > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience > > > http://launch.yahoo.com > > > -- > > > To unsubscribe, see > > > > http://mejac.palo-alto.ca.us/leica-users/unsub.html > > > > > > -- > > > To unsubscribe, see > > > http://mejac.palo-alto.ca.us/leica-users/unsub.html > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience > > http://launch.yahoo.com > > -- > > To unsubscribe, see > http://mejac.palo-alto.ca.us/leica-users/unsub.html > > > > -- > To unsubscribe, see > http://mejac.palo-alto.ca.us/leica-users/unsub.html > > -- > To unsubscribe, see http://mejac.palo-alto.ca.us/leica-users/unsub.html __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! 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