Archived posting to the Leica Users Group, 2001/03/27

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Subject: Re: [Leica] Jupiter 85mm f2
From: "Dante A. Stella" <>
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 08:16:27 -0500
References: <> <> <> <004101c0b697$1e9ac3f0$4d02a8c0@neurosoft.lan>

"Stanislaw B.A. Stawowy" wrote:

> Actually this is wrong.
> Russians took their share as a war booty and they had right to do it,
> as a winners and part of allies, as they agreed with other countries
> (some political speeches, papers and discussions; Marc know all this
> subject a whole lot better and can explain in better English :))

Theft is theft, and you are making artificial distinctions.  Trespass vis et armis is
not the basis for the use of someone else's intellectual property, whether you are
Soviet or Japanese.  The Soviets got away with it (1) because they were not exporting
to the West,, (2) no one cared to rattle their cage, and (3) everyone was
Leica-obssessed.  The Japanese got away with it because the Americans let them.

> Also, Russians not only copied designs, they made a whole lot of
> very good and unusual lenses

Not for Leica.  The common production models (35, 50, 85, and 135) were all
derivative of Zeiss designs.  The 28 is a wide-field Ektar scaled down.  The 20 is
original (inasmuch as it is not a Biogon clone).  You can see the actual lenses
compared in Marc's book and other literature.

In LTM, starting in about 1953, both Canon and Nikon went beyond the Sonnars and
started making their own designs.  Canon alone made about 20 lenses which resembled
nothing Zeiss had ever made.  Nikon made a smaller number of LTM lenses in toto, but
many notable, high speed ones.

Japanese manufacturers simply took German designs and made _exact_

> copies. This is a thievery and a unforgettable one.

I guess you've never seen the Nikkor 85, the Jupiter and the Sonnar in one place.
There is no barrel resemblance whatsoever between a Nikkor and a Sonnar.  There is
absolute identity between the Sonnar and the Jupiter (except for the lens coatings
and the better performance of the Sonnar).  The Nikkor is based on a different
barrel, is smaller, focuses differently, has click stops, and is made of brass
(necessitating completely different tooling).

Why is this any more unforgettable (or unforgivable) than the Soviets' making direct

> They actually made similar things with e.g. photographs of famous
> photographers, which they published worldwide _without_ _agreement_.
> Heck, they even named one of their islands "Usa" to have a right to
> label some of their products "Made in USA"...
> For all details please check LUD archives. There is a lot in them.
> -----
>                                 St.
>                      (Stanislaw B.A. Stawowy)
>             Echelon/Carnivore lines: Bob Black, Hakim Bey,
>            Ralph Klein, Sabotage in the American Workplace

In reply to: Message from Marc James Small <> (Re: [Leica] Jupiter 85mm f2)
Message from Marc James Small <> (Re: [Leica] Jupiter 85mm f2)
Message from "Dante A. Stella" <> (Re: [Leica] Jupiter 85mm f2)
Message from "Stanislaw B.A. Stawowy" <> (Re: [Leica] Jupiter 85mm f2)