Re: [Leica] "B Grade" Leica gear????

["Simon Lamb" <simon@sclamb.com>]

I agree.  Got some of my stuff there.  Len Lyons at RG Lewis is good too, as
is Richard Caplan.

I noticed that Classic Camera are selling a lot of demo equipment.  They
have an immaculate chrome R8 for £895 - a bargain.

They have a Noctilux in there too.  They have had it for ages so they may do
a deal on that if your were in the market for one.  I for one have touched
it mounted on a camera so it should be classified as 'demo' but given the
rarity of them you may not get too far!

Simon

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Matt Morgan" <mattmorgan@pdseurope.co.uk>
To: <leica-users@mejac.palo-alto.ca.us>
Sent: Friday, August 25, 2000 9:37 PM
Subject: Re: [Leica] "B Grade" Leica gear????


> Simon,
> The Classic Camera WC1. My impression is that they're the main place for
> Leica. (And just in case they're reading this....very nice people as
well!)
> Actually I really like the store and it has everything any Leica fan needs
> to satisfy their requirements.
> Matt.
>
> ----------
> >From: "Simon Lamb" <simon@sclamb.com>
> >To: <leica-users@mejac.palo-alto.ca.us>
> >Subject: Re: [Leica] "B Grade" Leica gear????
> >Date: Fri, Aug 25, 2000, 3:11 am
> >
>
> > Matt
> >
> > Who are you buying through?
> >
> > Simon
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Matt Morgan" <mattmorgan@pdseurope.co.uk>
> > To: <leica-users@mejac.palo-alto.ca.us>
> > Sent: Friday, August 25, 2000 8:19 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Leica] "B Grade" Leica gear????
> >
> >
> >> Simon,
> >> Thank-you for your detailed reply.
> >> I'm in London, and have just bought a `demo' 50mm 1.4 Lux. The saving
was
> >> decent enough to warrant buying it. I don't know what I should really
be
> >> checking for, but as long as the exterior looks fine and I can see
clearly
> >> thru the optics, the aperture and focus rings move freely, and there's
no
> >> scratches on the glass, then I assume it's OK. The only thing I've
noticed
> >> with this lens is a very minute mark exposing silver on the black paint
> > just
> >> next to the `E 46', but I'm sure with my use it will probably gain a
few
> >> more. I can make a fuller judgement when I get some results back, (off
to
> >> Joe's Basement today)
> >> However, I have also put a deposit on a 24mm `demo', which again looks
> > fine,
> >> but I'll inspect it more closely when I go back, but I have discovered
> > that
> >> the cost saving isn't as substantial as I was at first led to believe.
> > It's
> >> 2-300 GBP cheaper than the full catalogue price, but it's only about 90
> > GBP
> >> cheaper than the actual selling price. For the sake of 90 quid, I may
as
> >> well have a new one. If I don't need to be concerned, then any saving
> > helps.
> >> Bearing in mind what I've already spent with them, and that I'll be
buying
> > a
> >> rapidwinder, a 75mm or 90mm and another M6, as well as the 24mm, maybe
> > they
> >> might make the price more favourable. We'll see.
> >> Matt.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ----------
> >> >From: "Simon Lamb" <simon@sclamb.com>
> >> >To: <leica-users@mejac.palo-alto.ca.us>
> >> >Subject: Re: [Leica] "B Grade" Leica gear????
> >> >Date: Thu, Aug 24, 2000, 11:54 pm
> >> >
> >>
> >> > Matt
> >> >
> >> > I asked the same questions when I went the Leica HQ in the UK.  They
> > stated
> >> > that in the UK a 'demo' means any equipment that has been used by a
> > sales
> >> > rep either on the road to show to potential dealers, or on a stand at
a
> >> > show.  In this instance, when the equipment is returned to Leica UK
they
> > put
> >> > a stamp on the box and affix a star to the passport application form
to
> >> > denote that the equipment is ex-demo.  When the passport is returned
it
> >> > should also have a star affixed to it so that future purchasers will
> > know
> >> > the origins of the goods.  All such equipment would be checked by the
> > Leica
> >> > technical staff before being shipped out to dealers for sale.
> >> >
> >> > If a dealer has a piece of equipment and he has taken it out of the
box
> > to
> >> > show to prospective purchasers then it is up to that dealer to
disclose
> > that
> >> > fact and offer the goods at a reduced price as ex-demonstration.
There
> > will
> >> > not however be anything on the box or paperwork to denote that fact
that
> > the
> >> > goods are ex-demo.  But then, if it has been handled but not removed
> > from
> >> > the shop then I do not particularly care as long as the dealer
removes
> > any
> >> > fingermarks.
> >> >
> >> > I do have some sympathy for dealers here.  Take the Noctilux.  There
is
> > a
> >> > dealer in London who has a Noctilux in his shop.  I looked at it some
> > time
> >> > ago and he removed if from the box and mounted it on a camera so that
I
> >> > could assess the amount of intrusuion into the viewfinder.  I did not
> > buy it
> >> > at the time so he put it back in the box and back in the glass
cabinet.
> >> > Given that no dealer would hold large stock of the Noctilux, should I
be
> >> > able to return to the shop later and ask for a discount because the
> > goods
> >> > are 'ex-demo'?  This seems unfair, since one has to be able to look
at
> > goods
> >> > before deciding whether to make a purchase, and the dealer should be
> > able to
> >> > show goods without immediately making them 'ex-demo'.
> >> >
> >> > Simon
> >> >
> >> > Matt Morgan wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Rich,
> >> >> As I am just in the process of buying a "demo' lens, (from a
reputable
> > and
> >> >> known dealer) and want to make sure I'm not a mug, could you please
> >> > enlarge
> >> >> on the term `demo'?
> >> >> If a lens is sold as a demo, should I expect it to have only been
used
> > in
> >> >> the same store for potential customers to just put it on a camera
and
> > look
> >> >> through it? What other use could it have had? Could it be a return?
> >> >> How much wear would a demo lens expect before it is then sold on?
> >> >> If it is demo, why would the store sell it, instead of keeping it
for
> >> > quite
> >> >> a period of time, or are demo's supposed to be constantly renewed?
> >> >> What are the signs I should look for and check when buying?
> >> >> Lastly, what is an average discount from the dealer's selling price
> > (not
> >> >> full-list price) that should be expected for a demo?
> >> >> Apologies for so many questions, but as I'm spending a lot of money
in
> > a
> >> >> very short time I'd like to save a chunk if I can trust `demo' gear.
> >> >> However, I'd always rather pay the full amount for new than risk
buying
> >> >> inferior kit.
> >> >> Thanks, Matt.
> >> >>
> >> >> ----------
> >> >> >From: Photovilla@aol.com
> >> >> >To: leica-users@mejac.palo-alto.ca.us
> >> >> >Subject: [Leica] "B Grade" Leica gear????
> >> >> >Date: Thu, Aug 24, 2000, 6:41 pm
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> > <<Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 20:40:52 -0400
> >> >> >
> >> >> > From: Austin Franklin <austin@darkroom.com>
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Subject: [Leica] "B Grade" Leica gear????
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Message-ID: <01C00E0B.9A963BE0@user-2ive2l5.dialup.mindspring.com>
> >> >> >
> >> >> > References:
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > I just got off the phone with a camera dealer in California (he
was
> > not
> >> >> >
> >> >> > trying to sell me anything) who insists that all camera
manufacturers
> >> > sell
> >> >> >
> >> >> > A grade and B grade equipment...even C and lower grade.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > He claims the B grade is what is sold by the mail order outfits
> >> > (typically
> >> >> >
> >> >> > called "Gray Market")...and is why they can offer the lower
prices.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > The only marking distinction between any of the grades is a
sticker
> > on
> >> > the
> >> >> >
> >> >> > item...and he said these stores just pull the stickers off.
> >> > Manufacturers
> >> >> >
> >> >> > will always have some items that don't 'meet spec' and these
> > 'inferior'
> >> >> >
> >> >> > grade products, are what become B grade products, as opposed to
> > fixing
> >> >> >
> >> >> > them, or throwing them away...
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > It tees me off that if this is true, the manufacturers don't
> > physically
> >> >> >
> >> >> > mark the products as B grade...  He said Hasselblad sells this
grade
> > as
> >> >> >
> >> >> > 'demo' equipment...but again, the item it self isn't marked with
> >> > anything
> >> >> >
> >> >> > but a sticker.  What about the used equipment market, how do you
know
> > if
> >> >> >
> >> >> > you are buying an A grade or a B grade?
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > It would appear that even new equipment can be 'not so good'...
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > What does anyone else know about this?>>
> >> >> >
> >> >> > While I doubt any of this is actually true...I can say that I have
> > never
> >> >> > found any grey market gear with a sticker on it indicating it was
> > some
> >> > sort
> >> >> > of different grade.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > I have imported gear from:
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Germany
> >> >> > Hong Kong
> >> >> > Italy
> >> >> > Holland
> >> >> > Switzerland
> >> >> > Austria
> >> >> > Singapore
> >> >> > Cayman Islands
> >> >> >
> >> >> > ...and maybe a few others and I have never found a single
difference
> >> > beyond
> >> >> > the paperwork. I have also had some really REALLY picky customers
> > come
> >> > to the
> >> >> > showroom and compare gear atom-for-atom and never come up with
> > anything.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Perhaps Joseph Yao is still on the list and can shed more light on
> > the
> >> >> > subject, if there is anything to it. I'd like to hear it too. It
> > would
> >> >> > actually be a great sales-pitch for someone who sold only USA gear
> > too.
> >> > ;->
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > later,
> >> >> > Rich
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >
> >
>