Re: [Leica] "B Grade" Leica gear????

["Simon Lamb" <simon@sclamb.com>]

Matt

Who are you buying through?

Simon

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Matt Morgan" <mattmorgan@pdseurope.co.uk>
To: <leica-users@mejac.palo-alto.ca.us>
Sent: Friday, August 25, 2000 8:19 PM
Subject: Re: [Leica] "B Grade" Leica gear????


> Simon,
> Thank-you for your detailed reply.
> I'm in London, and have just bought a `demo' 50mm 1.4 Lux. The saving was
> decent enough to warrant buying it. I don't know what I should really be
> checking for, but as long as the exterior looks fine and I can see clearly
> thru the optics, the aperture and focus rings move freely, and there's no
> scratches on the glass, then I assume it's OK. The only thing I've noticed
> with this lens is a very minute mark exposing silver on the black paint
just
> next to the `E 46', but I'm sure with my use it will probably gain a few
> more. I can make a fuller judgement when I get some results back, (off to
> Joe's Basement today)
> However, I have also put a deposit on a 24mm `demo', which again looks
fine,
> but I'll inspect it more closely when I go back, but I have discovered
that
> the cost saving isn't as substantial as I was at first led to believe.
It's
> 2-300 GBP cheaper than the full catalogue price, but it's only about 90
GBP
> cheaper than the actual selling price. For the sake of 90 quid, I may as
> well have a new one. If I don't need to be concerned, then any saving
helps.
> Bearing in mind what I've already spent with them, and that I'll be buying
a
> rapidwinder, a 75mm or 90mm and another M6, as well as the 24mm, maybe
they
> might make the price more favourable. We'll see.
> Matt.
>
>
>
> ----------
> >From: "Simon Lamb" <simon@sclamb.com>
> >To: <leica-users@mejac.palo-alto.ca.us>
> >Subject: Re: [Leica] "B Grade" Leica gear????
> >Date: Thu, Aug 24, 2000, 11:54 pm
> >
>
> > Matt
> >
> > I asked the same questions when I went the Leica HQ in the UK.  They
stated
> > that in the UK a 'demo' means any equipment that has been used by a
sales
> > rep either on the road to show to potential dealers, or on a stand at a
> > show.  In this instance, when the equipment is returned to Leica UK they
put
> > a stamp on the box and affix a star to the passport application form to
> > denote that the equipment is ex-demo.  When the passport is returned it
> > should also have a star affixed to it so that future purchasers will
know
> > the origins of the goods.  All such equipment would be checked by the
Leica
> > technical staff before being shipped out to dealers for sale.
> >
> > If a dealer has a piece of equipment and he has taken it out of the box
to
> > show to prospective purchasers then it is up to that dealer to disclose
that
> > fact and offer the goods at a reduced price as ex-demonstration.  There
will
> > not however be anything on the box or paperwork to denote that fact that
the
> > goods are ex-demo.  But then, if it has been handled but not removed
from
> > the shop then I do not particularly care as long as the dealer removes
any
> > fingermarks.
> >
> > I do have some sympathy for dealers here.  Take the Noctilux.  There is
a
> > dealer in London who has a Noctilux in his shop.  I looked at it some
time
> > ago and he removed if from the box and mounted it on a camera so that I
> > could assess the amount of intrusuion into the viewfinder.  I did not
buy it
> > at the time so he put it back in the box and back in the glass cabinet.
> > Given that no dealer would hold large stock of the Noctilux, should I be
> > able to return to the shop later and ask for a discount because the
goods
> > are 'ex-demo'?  This seems unfair, since one has to be able to look at
goods
> > before deciding whether to make a purchase, and the dealer should be
able to
> > show goods without immediately making them 'ex-demo'.
> >
> > Simon
> >
> > Matt Morgan wrote:
> >
> >> Rich,
> >> As I am just in the process of buying a "demo' lens, (from a reputable
and
> >> known dealer) and want to make sure I'm not a mug, could you please
> > enlarge
> >> on the term `demo'?
> >> If a lens is sold as a demo, should I expect it to have only been used
in
> >> the same store for potential customers to just put it on a camera and
look
> >> through it? What other use could it have had? Could it be a return?
> >> How much wear would a demo lens expect before it is then sold on?
> >> If it is demo, why would the store sell it, instead of keeping it for
> > quite
> >> a period of time, or are demo's supposed to be constantly renewed?
> >> What are the signs I should look for and check when buying?
> >> Lastly, what is an average discount from the dealer's selling price
(not
> >> full-list price) that should be expected for a demo?
> >> Apologies for so many questions, but as I'm spending a lot of money in
a
> >> very short time I'd like to save a chunk if I can trust `demo' gear.
> >> However, I'd always rather pay the full amount for new than risk buying
> >> inferior kit.
> >> Thanks, Matt.
> >>
> >> ----------
> >> >From: Photovilla@aol.com
> >> >To: leica-users@mejac.palo-alto.ca.us
> >> >Subject: [Leica] "B Grade" Leica gear????
> >> >Date: Thu, Aug 24, 2000, 6:41 pm
> >> >
> >>
> >> > <<Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 20:40:52 -0400
> >> >
> >> > From: Austin Franklin <austin@darkroom.com>
> >> >
> >> > Subject: [Leica] "B Grade" Leica gear????
> >> >
> >> > Message-ID: <01C00E0B.9A963BE0@user-2ive2l5.dialup.mindspring.com>
> >> >
> >> > References:
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > I just got off the phone with a camera dealer in California (he was
not
> >> >
> >> > trying to sell me anything) who insists that all camera manufacturers
> > sell
> >> >
> >> > A grade and B grade equipment...even C and lower grade.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > He claims the B grade is what is sold by the mail order outfits
> > (typically
> >> >
> >> > called "Gray Market")...and is why they can offer the lower prices.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > The only marking distinction between any of the grades is a sticker
on
> > the
> >> >
> >> > item...and he said these stores just pull the stickers off.
> > Manufacturers
> >> >
> >> > will always have some items that don't 'meet spec' and these
'inferior'
> >> >
> >> > grade products, are what become B grade products, as opposed to
fixing
> >> >
> >> > them, or throwing them away...
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > It tees me off that if this is true, the manufacturers don't
physically
> >> >
> >> > mark the products as B grade...  He said Hasselblad sells this grade
as
> >> >
> >> > 'demo' equipment...but again, the item it self isn't marked with
> > anything
> >> >
> >> > but a sticker.  What about the used equipment market, how do you know
if
> >> >
> >> > you are buying an A grade or a B grade?
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > It would appear that even new equipment can be 'not so good'...
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > What does anyone else know about this?>>
> >> >
> >> > While I doubt any of this is actually true...I can say that I have
never
> >> > found any grey market gear with a sticker on it indicating it was
some
> > sort
> >> > of different grade.
> >> >
> >> > I have imported gear from:
> >> >
> >> > Germany
> >> > Hong Kong
> >> > Italy
> >> > Holland
> >> > Switzerland
> >> > Austria
> >> > Singapore
> >> > Cayman Islands
> >> >
> >> > ...and maybe a few others and I have never found a single difference
> > beyond
> >> > the paperwork. I have also had some really REALLY picky customers
come
> > to the
> >> > showroom and compare gear atom-for-atom and never come up with
anything.
> >> >
> >> > Perhaps Joseph Yao is still on the list and can shed more light on
the
> >> > subject, if there is anything to it. I'd like to hear it too. It
would
> >> > actually be a great sales-pitch for someone who sold only USA gear
too.
> > ;->
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > later,
> >> > Rich
> >> >
> >>
> >
> >
>