Re: [Leica] "B Grade" Leica gear????

["Matt Morgan" <mattmorgan@pdseurope.co.uk>]

Simon,
Thank-you for your detailed reply.
I'm in London, and have just bought a `demo' 50mm 1.4 Lux. The saving was
decent enough to warrant buying it. I don't know what I should really be
checking for, but as long as the exterior looks fine and I can see clearly
thru the optics, the aperture and focus rings move freely, and there's no
scratches on the glass, then I assume it's OK. The only thing I've noticed
with this lens is a very minute mark exposing silver on the black paint just
next to the `E 46', but I'm sure with my use it will probably gain a few
more. I can make a fuller judgement when I get some results back, (off to
Joe's Basement today)
However, I have also put a deposit on a 24mm `demo', which again looks fine,
but I'll inspect it more closely when I go back, but I have discovered that
the cost saving isn't as substantial as I was at first led to believe. It's
2-300 GBP cheaper than the full catalogue price, but it's only about 90 GBP
cheaper than the actual selling price. For the sake of 90 quid, I may as
well have a new one. If I don't need to be concerned, then any saving helps.
Bearing in mind what I've already spent with them, and that I'll be buying a
rapidwinder, a 75mm or 90mm and another M6, as well as the 24mm, maybe they
might make the price more favourable. We'll see.
Matt.



- ----------
>From: "Simon Lamb" <simon@sclamb.com>
>To: <leica-users@mejac.palo-alto.ca.us>
>Subject: Re: [Leica] "B Grade" Leica gear????
>Date: Thu, Aug 24, 2000, 11:54 pm
>

> Matt
>
> I asked the same questions when I went the Leica HQ in the UK.  They stated
> that in the UK a 'demo' means any equipment that has been used by a sales
> rep either on the road to show to potential dealers, or on a stand at a
> show.  In this instance, when the equipment is returned to Leica UK they put
> a stamp on the box and affix a star to the passport application form to
> denote that the equipment is ex-demo.  When the passport is returned it
> should also have a star affixed to it so that future purchasers will know
> the origins of the goods.  All such equipment would be checked by the Leica
> technical staff before being shipped out to dealers for sale.
>
> If a dealer has a piece of equipment and he has taken it out of the box to
> show to prospective purchasers then it is up to that dealer to disclose that
> fact and offer the goods at a reduced price as ex-demonstration.  There will
> not however be anything on the box or paperwork to denote that fact that the
> goods are ex-demo.  But then, if it has been handled but not removed from
> the shop then I do not particularly care as long as the dealer removes any
> fingermarks.
>
> I do have some sympathy for dealers here.  Take the Noctilux.  There is a
> dealer in London who has a Noctilux in his shop.  I looked at it some time
> ago and he removed if from the box and mounted it on a camera so that I
> could assess the amount of intrusuion into the viewfinder.  I did not buy it
> at the time so he put it back in the box and back in the glass cabinet.
> Given that no dealer would hold large stock of the Noctilux, should I be
> able to return to the shop later and ask for a discount because the goods
> are 'ex-demo'?  This seems unfair, since one has to be able to look at goods
> before deciding whether to make a purchase, and the dealer should be able to
> show goods without immediately making them 'ex-demo'.
>
> Simon
>
> Matt Morgan wrote:
>
>> Rich,
>> As I am just in the process of buying a "demo' lens, (from a reputable and
>> known dealer) and want to make sure I'm not a mug, could you please
> enlarge
>> on the term `demo'?
>> If a lens is sold as a demo, should I expect it to have only been used in
>> the same store for potential customers to just put it on a camera and look
>> through it? What other use could it have had? Could it be a return?
>> How much wear would a demo lens expect before it is then sold on?
>> If it is demo, why would the store sell it, instead of keeping it for
> quite
>> a period of time, or are demo's supposed to be constantly renewed?
>> What are the signs I should look for and check when buying?
>> Lastly, what is an average discount from the dealer's selling price (not
>> full-list price) that should be expected for a demo?
>> Apologies for so many questions, but as I'm spending a lot of money in a
>> very short time I'd like to save a chunk if I can trust `demo' gear.
>> However, I'd always rather pay the full amount for new than risk buying
>> inferior kit.
>> Thanks, Matt.
>>
>> ----------
>> >From: Photovilla@aol.com
>> >To: leica-users@mejac.palo-alto.ca.us
>> >Subject: [Leica] "B Grade" Leica gear????
>> >Date: Thu, Aug 24, 2000, 6:41 pm
>> >
>>
>> > <<Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 20:40:52 -0400
>> >
>> > From: Austin Franklin <austin@darkroom.com>
>> >
>> > Subject: [Leica] "B Grade" Leica gear????
>> >
>> > Message-ID: <01C00E0B.9A963BE0@user-2ive2l5.dialup.mindspring.com>
>> >
>> > References:
>> >
>> >
>> > I just got off the phone with a camera dealer in California (he was not
>> >
>> > trying to sell me anything) who insists that all camera manufacturers
> sell
>> >
>> > A grade and B grade equipment...even C and lower grade.
>> >
>> >
>> > He claims the B grade is what is sold by the mail order outfits
> (typically
>> >
>> > called "Gray Market")...and is why they can offer the lower prices.
>> >
>> >
>> > The only marking distinction between any of the grades is a sticker on
> the
>> >
>> > item...and he said these stores just pull the stickers off.
> Manufacturers
>> >
>> > will always have some items that don't 'meet spec' and these 'inferior'
>> >
>> > grade products, are what become B grade products, as opposed to fixing
>> >
>> > them, or throwing them away...
>> >
>> >
>> > It tees me off that if this is true, the manufacturers don't physically
>> >
>> > mark the products as B grade...  He said Hasselblad sells this grade as
>> >
>> > 'demo' equipment...but again, the item it self isn't marked with
> anything
>> >
>> > but a sticker.  What about the used equipment market, how do you know if
>> >
>> > you are buying an A grade or a B grade?
>> >
>> >
>> > It would appear that even new equipment can be 'not so good'...
>> >
>> >
>> > What does anyone else know about this?>>
>> >
>> > While I doubt any of this is actually true...I can say that I have never
>> > found any grey market gear with a sticker on it indicating it was some
> sort
>> > of different grade.
>> >
>> > I have imported gear from:
>> >
>> > Germany
>> > Hong Kong
>> > Italy
>> > Holland
>> > Switzerland
>> > Austria
>> > Singapore
>> > Cayman Islands
>> >
>> > ...and maybe a few others and I have never found a single difference
> beyond
>> > the paperwork. I have also had some really REALLY picky customers come
> to the
>> > showroom and compare gear atom-for-atom and never come up with anything.
>> >
>> > Perhaps Joseph Yao is still on the list and can shed more light on the
>> > subject, if there is anything to it. I'd like to hear it too. It would
>> > actually be a great sales-pitch for someone who sold only USA gear too.
> ;->
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > later,
>> > Rich
>> >
>>
>
>