Archived posting to the Leica Users Group, 2011/03/12

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Subject: [Leica] IMGS: check out Keith Wessel's photographs
From: frank.dernie at btinternet.com (FRANK DERNIE)
Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2011 10:59:26 +0000 (GMT)
References: <38C7FB98-0C4A-4D57-BF3E-AF6432C7F390@mac.com> <4D798495.6010704@panix.com> <F1C731CE-FC27-45CA-B521-4DC41AEC8698@mac.com> <444198.62728.qm@web86707.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <1B6C17B8-E719-4380-9ADC-F217B6F687CE@mac.com>

Hi George,
I quite agree with you on everything you write, except the taxpayer detail.
I fully endorse the need of public employment and the likelihood of 
privatising 
these services resulting in worse services for more money (and probably a 
crony 
of whoever is in power getting rich).
I absolutely support taxpayers needing to pay for the services they demand.
OTOH before money can be spent somebody, somewhere has to earn it, then pay 
real 
net tax on it.
My knowledge of the US tax system and the difference between federal and 
state 
revenues is non-existent, so maybe what I wrote about taxpayers is not true 
for 
you, but if one imagines the tax being put into a big pot, from which 
everything 
public must be paid, it does not really matter whether the tax is collected 
locally or nationally the fact is that sales tax, income tax and property 
taxes 
all effectively go into the same pot, in varying proportions, and public 
employees are entirely paid out of it. They are not net tax payers to my way 
of 
looking at it.
I do not by this mean to belittle their efforts or underestimate the 
importance 
of what they do. What I do mean is that however much we want the service 
they 
provide we can not have it if our economy does not have a significant number 
of 
people in genuine wealth creating employment who are net tax contributors.
Who are net contributors, from this perspective?
Artists, such as yourself, who create from almost nothing valuable art which 
people pay for.
Anybody who takes a lump of clay and makes a brick, anybody who takes a 
sheet of 
steel and makes a washing machine, anybody who takes a pile of bricks and 
builds 
a house. The payment received for all these efforts is taxed and is "new" 
money 
going into the tax pot. It is this "new" money that allows us to pay for 
other 
things, not the money which circulates into and out of the tax pot. This 
circulation keeps people in work but is unsustainable without the "new" 
money 
since the money will dry up otherwise.
If nobody is making "new" money nobody can spend it. However much we thing 
we 
"need" something.
IMHO
Frank


----- Original Message ----
From: George Lottermoser <imagist3 at mac.com>
To: Leica Users Group <lug at leica-users.org>
Sent: Friday, 11 March, 2011 20:58:51
Subject: Re: [Leica] IMGS: check out Keith Wessel's photographs


On Mar 11, 2011, at 2:28 PM, FRANK DERNIE wrote:

> George, public employees are -not- net tax payers since the tax they 
> nominally 

> pay goes straight into their next pay packet, topped up by other real 
> taxpayers 
>
> contributions. If a public employee was directly paid his after tax income 
> and 

> paid no tax, or is paid his nominal income and pays the tax the end effect 
> is 
> the same.
> All public employees cost taxpayers something I am afraid.
> The arithmetic is straightforward.


Frank, let us try and frame this within the larger systemic reality.
Public services cost taxpayers $$.
In order to provide those services we must hire employees, rent offices, 
purchase equipment, etc.
State public employees also "really" pay federal income taxes;
they "really" pay sales taxes, gas taxes, and all other taxes;
and yes to some degree they also pay a portion of their own salaries in 
state 
taxes.
In in all cases they qualify as "real tax payers.
They also circulate their $$ within the economy.

Now let us drop all pretense around public service "employees" and simply 
get to 
the heart of the matter.
Some people appreciate the services provided by a well regulated government.
This would include the mass of people who cannot afford to purchase those 
services on their own.
Other people believe that all services should be privatized.
This would mostly be people who can afford to purchase any and everything 
that 
desire.
Yet others believe even more services should be provided by their government.
This would include the absolute bottom in terms of income and resources.
And all others believe in one or another proportion between public and 
private 
services;
according to what they need and/or want in life.
Now:
If you can afford a private school education you probably resent supporting 
public education.
and the list could go on and on.

Whether the state hires employees to provide services to the citizenry
or hires private contractors to provide the same services the services will 
need 
to be paid for.

With out any doubt
if we privatize everything
those business will run to earn the largest possible profits for their CEO's 
and 
shareholders.
How does that hold down costs?
This is what we see with the insurance companies.
NOT THE MOST EFFICIENT WAY TO DELIVER HEALTH CARE SERVICES.

Until people are willing to actually pay a reasonable wage to the people
who grow, pick, cook, serve, deliver their food to the super market,
clean their homes, pickup their trash, build, maintain and plow their roads,
deliver their mail, stand at their store's cash registers, teach or provide 
care 
for their children
and on and on - in my opinion - we need to provide a modicum
of safety, health and education to these, our servants.

Regards,
George Lottermoser 
george at imagist.com
http://www.imagist.com
http://www.imagist.com/blog
http://www.linkedin.com/in/imagist






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Replies: Reply from imagist3 at mac.com (George Lottermoser) ([Leica] IMGS: check out Keith Wessel's photographs)
In reply to: Message from imagist3 at mac.com (George Lottermoser) ([Leica] IMGS: check out Keith Wessel's photographs)
Message from shino at panix.com (Rei Shinozuka) ([Leica] IMGS: check out Keith Wessel's photographs)
Message from imagist3 at mac.com (George Lottermoser) ([Leica] IMGS: check out Keith Wessel's photographs)
Message from frank.dernie at btinternet.com (FRANK DERNIE) ([Leica] IMGS: check out Keith Wessel's photographs)
Message from imagist3 at mac.com (George Lottermoser) ([Leica] IMGS: check out Keith Wessel's photographs)