Archived posting to the Leica Users Group, 2009/03/18
[Author Prev] [Author Next] [Thread Prev] [Thread Next] [Author Index] [Topic Index] [Home] [Search]George, I agree with your last paragraph, but I bet you were not like this at 18. I wasn't. It takes time and experience to learn these things. Cheers Jayanand On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 12:08 AM, George Lottermoser <imagist3 at mac.com> wrote: > I'm with you on this Chris. > I've spent too much of my life in the ad bus; > and glad to be winding it down. > I've not worked (much) in the fashion end of the business; > but the effect of these retouched dolls on our societies > and specifically on our young women's self esteem and self image > is a damn shame and very real. > > Ann's daughter is a beautiful 22 year old > and I watch her (and her mother) > watching this crap and doing daily battle > to achieve these impossible looks. > > They often don't even believe me > when I point out that scenes in movies > are made with body doubles and frame by frame retouching. > > I'd love to see the whole industry collapse; > makeup, surgeries, botox - all of it. > > It's one thing to stay healthy and fit; > quite another when you feel forced to > paint, starve, cut and paste to compete > in a world of illusions. > > I find women most beautiful > when they're feel perfectly comfortable with themselves > and the least makeup is applied. > > Regards, > George Lottermoser > george at imagist.com > http://www.imagist.com > http://www.imagist.com/blog > http://www.linkedin.com/in/imagist > > On Mar 18, 2009, at 12:29 PM, Chris Saganich wrote: > >> Well, we are on opposite ends of opinion (and the world). ?I have only >> contempt for glossy magazines and the entire industry including all >> advertising. ?From your arguments I feel as though your an Ad man of some >> sort, something I'm familiar with being in NYC many friends of mine make a >> living retouching images, in fact almost all the photographers I know call >> it their bread and butter these days. >> >>> This link is a practical example that we have shown our daughter. >>> http://demo.fb.se/e/girlpower/ad/retouch/index.html >> >> Click before and after on the breasts and sing a sea shanty. ?Breasts like >> that require surgery. >> >> >>> Here this issue has been raised to an extent, with a voluntary code for >>> women's magazines especially, to follow. Another related issue is minimum >>> age and weight standards for fashion models. Following media attention >>> stirring popular opinion, some successful European models have been >>> withdrawn from high profile shows here on age or weight issues. Yet we >>> have >>> 13 yr olds launching successful careers from cover photographs on Teen >>> magazines. >> >> Voluntary codes? ?Your kidding right? ?Men's magazines as well not just >> the girls ya know! >> >>> I do have reservations regarding effectiveness for any legislation to >>> require disclosure on retouching. >>> >>> Here are some points that come to mind for me: >>> A meaningful disclosure on any fashion image would be complex and large. >>> I >>> don't see that as practical at all. It could easily double the size of a >>> magazine for example. >> >> ?Then they shouldn't retouch so many images. >> >>> A generic warning (similar to a product health warning) may not be >>> effective >>> at all. It would realistically have to say that EVERY image in the >>> magazine >>> has been altered. >> >> So? ?Say it like it is. >> >> >>> Since many magazines are international in distribution, this could negate >>> any national legislation anyway, editions unaffected by such legislation >>> could be more desirable (cheaper? smaller? ). >> >> The magazines which do not retouch, significantly altering body genotype, >> should be more expensive due the legislation. >> >>> What about television and movie content? Do we require disclosure when a >>> "stunt butt" stands in for the leading lady for unclothed scenes? >>> Should disclosure extend to all printed or displayed images? >>> >> Yes, Yes, Yes >> >> >> >>> Who sets the standards and for what contexts? >>> What would be the cost of implementation? >> >> >> >>> Would there be practical benefits? >> >>> Like ban on public smoking? ?Likely yes >>> >>> You can see how these ideas can balloon out of all proportion. >> >> I have no problem with balloons of great proportion. >> >> >>> In my opinion, this sort of issue sounds like a great idea at first >>> glance >>> but is grossly impractical to actually implement. Do you have any >>> professional insights on practical effects or implementations that you >>> are >>> aware of? Can you share any views on what you think is appropriate or how >>> that causal link could be approached? >> >> For causal links, here is one of many recent meta-analysis. ?Start with >> all the references. >> >> http://psy6023.alliant.wikispaces.net/file/view/Article+for+PSY6023.pdf >> >> >> >> >>> http://gallery.leica-users.org/v/gh/a/ns/DLoriginal.jpg.html >>> http://gallery.leica-users.org/v/gh/a/ns/DL.jpg.html >> >> Don't do this, it's a psychological disconnect which is likely to support >> negative body image for the girl. ?Why do something that increases the >> probability of a negative impact? ?Like not wearing seat belts...because >> you >> know your local hospital has a top notch trauma unit? ?There is no >> important >> justification here. ?I'm sure every likes the after photo, just like I >> like >> TV more when I'm stoned. ?Should I advocate doing drugs to make our TV >> experience better? ?Any disconnect with reality is addictive and >> potentially >> harmfull. >> >> >>> A retouching disclsure would be extensive and detract from the appeal of >>> the >>> photo too. >> >> Good. >> >>> Yet it included a bw conversion with contrast, individual colour >>> conversion adjustments, >> >> this doesn't significantly change body type, but, does have an impact >> about how you feel about yourself. ?The impact can go either way depending >> on what you do. ?There is more power to an image then your giving credit, >> and therefore more power in the hands of the image manipulator. ?My >> professional opinion is that through this kind of research we will see the >> beginnings of the real power of images on us and how we relate to the >> world, >> how we treat each other, and how we treat the world. ?I don't see any >> disconnect here. >> >> >>> obviously removal of skin imperfections, lines, >>> texture and luminace, eyes altered in shade, detail, sharpness, tone even >>> highlight adjustments, localised focus adjustments throughout etc etc. >>> I think that the viewer can look and is well aware that the photo has >>> been >>> idealised. Similarly, surely people in general are aware that all printed >>> photgraphs are subject to entensive modification before publication. >>> There >>> are millions published every year. >>> >>> >>> >>> 2009/3/18 Chris Saganich <chs2018 at med.cornell.edu> >>> >>> > Another reason I like the French. ?As a Public Health Professional I do >>> > see >>> > a thread through image retouching, negative body image, and >>> > psychological/physical harm through the entire population. >>> > >>> > < >>> > >>> > http://video.nytimes.com/video/playlist/opinion/op-ed/1194833176718/index.html#1194838469575 >>> > > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > Leica Users Group. >>> > See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information >>> > >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Cheers >>> Geoff >>> 'Pick up your Leica and make the best photo you can' >>> http://gallery.leica-users.org/v/gh/a/ >>> http://www.pbase.com/hoppyman >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Leica Users Group. >>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information >> >> Chris Saganich MS, CPH >> Senior Physicist, Office of Health Physics >> Weill Medical College of Cornell University >> New York Presbyterian Hospital >> chs2018 at med.cornell.edu >> http://intranet.med.cornell.edu/research/health_phys/ >> Ph. 212.746.6964 >> Fax. 212.746.4800 >> Office A-0049 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Leica Users Group. >> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information > > > _______________________________________________ > Leica Users Group. > See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information >