Archived posting to the Leica Users Group, 2009/01/18

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Subject: [Leica] audiophilia OT sales disc/CDs
From: kididdoc at (Steve Barbour)
Date: Sun Jan 18 06:08:11 2009
References: <><COL119-W6279E98543A1FB49A6154882D40@phx.gbl><p06230923c5969b79af39@[]><><><><><> <> <028DD8F55929401E9F1ED75C0237A752@D1S9FY41>

On Jan 18, 2009, at 6:56 AM, Seth Rosner wrote:

> Charlie, Frank and other vinyl-o-philes - say it quickly and it will  
> sound like vanillafiles  ;-)  :
> a few years ago a dear friend and client of over 30 years passed and  
> left me her almost entirely classical record collection, probably  
> over 2,000 discs, 78 and 33. Onto that I also have discs from the  
> 1930's and 40's I inherited from my parents, who met as a result of  
> having the same voice teacher. I intend to engage a music major at  
> Skidmore College, here in Saratoga Springs, to catalog them. Is  
> there a company through which I may sell what I don't want to keep?

let me add a question here please,  with a small change in the subject  

I have many ! selected mint classical/jazz/french CD' & where  
best to sell them?


> Seth
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charlie Chan" 
> < 
> >
> To: "Leica Users Group" <>
> Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2009 7:37 AM
> Subject: Re: [Leica] more audiophilia spectacularly OT but  
> interesting to a few
>> There's no substitute for using your senses - eyes or ears. Good
>> dealers are difficult to come by nowadays. Two channel hi-fi is much
>> more of a niche market now, with many people going to 5.1 or 7.1
>> systems with lots of bass boost.
>> I've collected my hi-fi over 30 years, having spent my younger days
>> selling the stuff in a shop with a guy called Ken Kessler. As a
>> result, I'm a vinyl, valves (tubes) and efficient speakers man.
>> there's no such thing as a perfect hi-fi component or system. The  
>> room
>> in which you listen is very important too; you just have to go to
>> enough live music events (classical, jazz or rock) to appreciate how
>> some venues are acoustically terrible.
>> I've spent a lot of money on my turntable (Platine Verdier/ Schroeder
>> Model 2 arm and Allaerts MC1B cartridge) and I'm very happy now. So
>> now I just spend my money on records. It's just like cameras - you  
>> buy
>> the kit you want to use and then you should take lots of pictures.
>> Charlie Chan
>> Cheltenham, UK
>> On 18 Jan 2009, at 08:48, Frank Dernie wrote:
>>> Lluis,
>>> I learned this lesson years ago, like you. I also had a dealer, now
>>> retired, who let me try anything at home. Most of what I use now I
>>> bought from him over the years, the most recent about 10 years ago,
>>> based on listening. I am still very happy!
>>> 20 years after having been so impressed by how much less parasitic
>>> interference there was on the pickup signal using a Goldmund
>>> reference turntable I managed to track down a used one in good
>>> mechanical condition at a not too extreme price. That is what I now
>>> use.
>>> best regards,
>>> Frank
>>> On 17 Jan, 2009, at 18:48, Lluis Ripoll wrote:
>>>> Hi Frank,
>>>> Thank you for your good explanation, you have a really good
>>>> knowledge, the problem with the Hi-Fi is as you know that the
>>>> prices to improve quality increase geometrically, in other words,
>>>> if your actual investiment is level 10 to have a quality level 15
>>>> you should pay 20, and to have a quality 23 you should pay 35... In
>>>> my experience when I've purchased something I've paid attention to
>>>> the differences etc.., even the shop who sells me they know me
>>>> after I was very young and they leave me the things at home to try
>>>> and compare..., but once you buy it you are used to listen and
>>>> many, many times I don't pay attention to the details that make
>>>> better an outfit over the other.
>>>> Saludos cordiales
>>>> Lluis
>>>> El 17/01/2009, a las 19:03, Frank Dernie escribi?:
>>>>> Hi Lluis!
>>>>> Before I took up my current career I did R&D and design of record
>>>>> players. You are absolutely right, the requirement of the
>>>>> turntable is to rotate at constant speed and no sound parasites.
>>>>> The technical problem is to achieve this. No turntable I have ever
>>>>> measured or heard actually achieves it. Our ears are more
>>>>> sensitive than any transducer in both frequency and amplitude.
>>>>> There is -no- turntable ever made which produces no sound
>>>>> parasites, and the vast majority produce a lot of sound parasites
>>>>> and at quite high level. Clever designers design their players so
>>>>> the parasitic resonances and feedback are at frequencies and "Q"
>>>>> that listeners find pleasant. Many record players I have measured
>>>>> have very obviously been tuned to only add harmonious
>>>>> "interference".
>>>>> There was one very highly regarded SME arm, the 3009, which had
>>>>> such energetic resonances that they could be seen as big peaks on
>>>>> the curve if one was trying to measure a pickup cartridge, the
>>>>> signal added by this arm at some frequencies was louder than the
>>>>> original music! The other thing difficult to avoid is the time
>>>>> delayed feedback from the sound in the room, both structure-borne
>>>>> and airborne.
>>>>> A few people have tried to lower there parasitics considerably.
>>>>> The ones I have seen which do this in a technically sound way are
>>>>> Goldmund and Continuum (there are others who get part way there at
>>>>> a less "no compromise price"). I am familiar with the Goldmund
>>>>> (the original not the new limited edition one which seems
>>>>> ludicrously expensive) Of all those I know it allows by far the
>>>>> lowest level of parasitic interference get to the pickup
>>>>> cartridge. What Continuum print is technically very sound. I would
>>>>> not be surprised to find it superior to the Goldmund in these
>>>>> respects.
>>>>> The Clearaudio is based on pseudo-technical gobbledygook which is
>>>>> either there to keep their secrets or, looking at the design,
>>>>> simply to separate clients from their cash. In my opinion.
>>>>> The pickup cartridge is, as you say, very important. I also use an
>>>>> Ortofon. In fact the generator design and pivot damping dominate
>>>>> the characteristics at lower frequencies. As frequencies increase
>>>>> the shape of the stylus tip is increasingly important, I forget
>>>>> the frequency limit for the original spherical tips but at a
>>>>> surprisingly low frequency the radius of the tip is bigger than
>>>>> the curve it would have to follow in the groove. At this point it
>>>>> starts being very inaccurate. The best stylus tips are very
>>>>> expensive. All this is wasted however if the turntable and arm
>>>>> either generate parasites or allow feedback through. All
>>>>> turntables do to a surprisingly high degree, the nice ones are the
>>>>> ones that add harmonious interference!
>>>>> best regards,
>>>>> Frank
>>>>> On 17 Jan, 2009, at 16:26, Lluis Ripoll wrote:
>>>>>> Frank,
>>>>>> This is a beautiful "toy"!
>>>>>> In my opinion the turntable is not a "main element", the capsule
>>>>>> could be more important. For me the work of a turntable should
>>>>>> be: constant speed, and no sound parasites, the good work is do
>>>>>> by the rest of the installation and also a vey important thing,
>>>>>> I've expend some money on have good cables and connectors. My
>>>>>> turntable is a Lenco L-78 from the 70's with an Ortophon capsule
>>>>>> and it still sound very good, enought for me.
>>>>>> Saludos cordiales
>>>>>> Lluis
>>>>>> El 17/01/2009, a las 11:32, Frank Dernie escribi?:
>>>>>>> I know most of you will think this high price stuff is a joke,
>>>>>>> and at this price (and actually, looking at the design as a
>>>>>>> person who used to design high end turntables >30 years ago,
>>>>>>> this particular item is a victory for marketing). The most
>>>>>>> important engineering aspects for a turntable to work well are
>>>>>>> not addressed in this design, more a styling/marketing exercise
>>>>>>> (IMHO).
>>>>>>> It is actually extremely high tech to produce a device to
>>>>>>> transduce records without adding some, or a lot, of non signal
>>>>>>> related vibrations ends up being added to the output by the
>>>>>>> machine. A record playing device which works well is likely to
>>>>>>> cost several orders on  magnitude more than any CD player, and
>>>>>>> is probably not worth it........
>>>>>>> The device I have measured and listened to which is the most
>>>>>>> accurate, the Goldmund Reference was very expensive (not as much
>>>>>>> as this thing though) and made in tiny quantities.
>>>>>>> There is a very expensive turntable system which, based on my
>>>>>>> knowledge, probably is the most accurate one available. It
>>>>>>> cleverly addresses all the important requirements I know of. I
>>>>>>> have never seen or listened to one.
>>>>>>> but not as pretty.
>>>>>>> FWIW,
>>>>>>> Frank
>>>>>>> On 16 Jan, 2009, at 20:17, Henning Wulff wrote:
>>>>>>>> At 12:26 PM -0700 1/16/09, Greg Lorenzo wrote:
>>>>>>>>> George Lottermoser writes:> > 
>>>>>>>>> <
>>>>>>>>> > iref=mpstoryview>> > nonsensically cryptic,> george
>>>>>>>>> Quoted from the link:
>>>>>>>>> "When I look at it," said Placido Pappalardo, co-owner of
>>>>>>>>> maker Angelis Labor, "the only word that comes to mind is  
>>>>>>>>> love."
>>>>>>>>> The first word that came to my mind was 'stupid'.
>>>>>>>>> Greg Lorenzo
>>>>>>>>> Calgary, Canada
>>>>>>>> How about this one for $125,000?
>>>>>>>> But the tonearms are included.
>>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>>> *            Henning J. Wulff
>>>>>>>> /|\      Wulff Photography & Design
>>>>>>>> /###\
>>>>>>>> |[ ]|
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Leica Users Group.
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>>>>>>>> information
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>>>>>>> Leica Users Group.
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>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Leica Users Group.
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>>>>>> information
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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Replies: Reply from at (Douglas Sharp) ([Leica] audiophilia OT sales disc/CDs)
Reply from gregj_lorenzo at (Greg Lorenzo) ([Leica] audiophilia OT sales disc/CDs)
In reply to: Message from imagist3 at (George Lottermoser) ([Leica] more audiophilia)
Message from gregj_lorenzo at (Greg Lorenzo) ([Leica] more audiophilia)
Message from henningw at (Henning Wulff) ([Leica] more audiophilia)
Message from Frank.Dernie at (Frank Dernie) ([Leica] more audiophilia spectacularly OT but interesting to a few)
Message from luisripoll at (Lluis Ripoll) ([Leica] more audiophilia spectacularly OT but interesting to a few)
Message from Frank.Dernie at (Frank Dernie) ([Leica] more audiophilia spectacularly OT but interesting to a few)
Message from luisripoll at (Lluis Ripoll) ([Leica] more audiophilia spectacularly OT but interesting to a few)
Message from Frank.Dernie at (Frank Dernie) ([Leica] more audiophilia spectacularly OT but interesting to a few)
Message from topoxforddoc at (Charlie Chan) ([Leica] more audiophilia spectacularly OT but interesting to a few)
Message from sethrosner at (Seth Rosner) ([Leica] more audiophilia spectacularly OT but interesting to a few)