Archived posting to the Leica Users Group, 2006/02/20
[Author Prev] [Author Next] [Thread Prev] [Thread Next] [Author Index] [Topic Index] [Home] [Search]Frank, I lived in New York City at the time of the release of the M2R and was friendly with the NY Leitz people. I learned from their top sales guy, Hy Becker, that the camera/lens set was about to be released and of its attractive pricing. It was as a result of this that I urged my partner to buy one. I actually took him to a Leitz dealer I knew, I believe they were on 43d Street bet Fifth and Madison Aves. It may even have been a year or two later than I mentioned. This camera cannot possibly be a genuine M2R. It seems to me that what is of greater concern is that a dealer of Leica collectibles, who should be held to know such things, offered this camera with such a detailed and inaccurate decription. Seth ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frank Dernie" <Frank.Dernie@btinternet.com> To: "Leica Users Group" <lug@leica-users.org> Sent: Monday, February 20, 2006 6:01 PM Subject: Re: [Leica] Bogus M2-R Auction >I think you take the Leica paperwork far too seriously. I have photocopies >of the originals and things are far from clear. There are several >sequential olive M3s for example which are not on the list but clearly >exist. There were factory special orders of specials which are not >properly marked in the register, or sometimes a hurried scrawl. > There are repaired cameras which have had mods done either by the factory > or specialist technicians. > One of my MPs has the correct engraving on the shutter crate, double wind > and M2 style film counter but has been repaired at some time using an M2 > top plate. > I used to take the various lists in the collectors books as gospel when I > first traced the history of some of mine but soon learned that the truth > is more complicated. The best research I have seen on the reality are the > two books by Giunta who has been collecting details from collectors into > his spreadsheet for years. Clear patterns which are not obvious from the > Leitz records can be seen. > Mind you there are plenty of fakes of the valuable models too..... > Frank > > > On 20 Feb, 2006, at 22:27, GREG LORENZO wrote: > >> Hi Frank, >> >> Here is the result from querying Leica's Serial Number database for the >> camera in question (Serial No. 1164803): >> >> "Serial number 1164803 >> Product Leica M2" >> >> Here is the result from querying the same database for a personally >> known M2-R: >> >> "Serial number 1248695 >> Product Leica M2R" >> >> The Ebay ad in question referred to a 1966 manufacture date for this >> "M2-R" camera. (The date of the camera's manufacture is correct at >> least.) However, Leica did not commence making and selling the 2000 >> M2-R's that were made in total until 1969. From the Cameraquest website >> Serial Number listing: >> >> "Date Camera Starting Ending Batch >> >> 8/28/69 M2-R 1248201 1250200 2000" >> >> Page 207 of Volume 1 of Jim Lager's Leica Illustrated History agrees >> with both Leica and Cameraquest with repect to Serial Number series and >> with Cameraquest with regard to maufacture date. >> >> The Seller withdrew the ad very quickly (at least) after I emailed them >> on it. >> >> I would certainly not be prepared to do business with them, others can >> draw their own conclusion. >> >> Regards, >> >> Greg >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Frank Dernie <Frank.Dernie@btinternet.com> >> Date: Monday, February 20, 2006 1:09 pm >> Subject: Re: [Leica] Bogus M2-R Auction >> >>> The Classic Camera is a pretty serious Leica collectors >>> dealership. I >>> would be very surprised if they mis-represented an item for sale, >>> particularly since they are not hiding behind a non recognisable >>> ebay >>> name. >>> I did buty a mis-represented camera once on ebay from an >>> apparently >>> private individual which turned out to be Ffordes, a dealer I had >>> hitherto considered to be reputable and from whom I had bought >>> other >>> cameras and lenses directly. >>> Frank >>> >>> On 20 Feb, 2006, at 17:18, GREG LORENZO wrote: >>> >>>> The Classic Camera - The Leica Shop in London's West End. >>>> >>>> Here is the item description verbatim from that Ebay Auction. >>>> >>>> I really can't understand posting this kind of nonsense: >>>> >>>> "Leica M2R Black Paint with Three Limited Edition B+W Prints. >>>> >>>> This camera has an interesting history. It dates from 1966, and >>>> soon after was expertly painted black (by the US Military we >>>> understand) and used by War Photographer Fidel Peralle in >>> Vietnam >>>> in the late '60s/early '70s. In the year 2000, Peralle returned >>> to >>>> Vietnam and shot a new series of pictures with his old black >>> paint >>>> M2-R - three of which are included here in limited edition >>> prints. >>>> Given its somewhat turbulent past, the camera is in remarkably >>> good >>>> condition - signs of average/normal use as one would expect from >>> >>>> something of this vintage. The black paint is clean and there >>> are >>>> no signs of brassing at edges or corners. There are a few minor >>>> surface marks on the top plate, and tiny pin-head sized ding >>> above >>>> the Leica scripted logo. Overall, condition is a very good Exc+ - >>> >>>> maybe Exc++ - depending on how rigorous you want to be. The >>> camera >>>> is in full working order. The shutter is working on all speeds >>> and >>>> appears accurate, though absolute accuracy not guaranteed. The rang >>>> efinder is working correctly and is clear and easy to focus. >>>> Viewfinder magnification is 0.85x. There are frames for 50mm and >>> >>>> 90mm lenses only - for some reason the original owner had the >>> 35mm >>>> brightline frame taken out. The camera comes with original >>>> instructions and the three limited edition A4 size black and >>> white >>>> prints previously mentioned." >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> >>>> >>>> Greg >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Leica Users Group. >>>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Leica Users Group. >>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Leica Users Group. >> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information > > > _______________________________________________ > Leica Users Group. > See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information >