Archived posting to the Leica Users Group, 2015/02/02
[Author Prev] [Author Next] [Thread Prev] [Thread Next] [Author Index] [Topic Index] [Home] [Search]Frank said "As a person who has almost always had dealings with honest, trustworthy people". I have to say wearing my ex-banker's hat that I found during the tiger years that a significant number of customers deliberately misstated their income and assets when they were going for loans. Equally, many bankers turned a blind eye to this veneering of balsawood with mahogany, and blithely handed out the money to meet their own impossible growth targets. So what if they got a Holga with a Leica red dot, they should show their superiors the camera and say "See it is a Leica! It has a red dot...", and their backs were covered. Douglas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frank Dernie" <Frank.Dernie at btinternet.com> To: "Leica Users Group" <lug at leica-users.org> Sent: Monday, February 02, 2015 11:02 AM Subject: Re: [Leica] Nathan's PAD 31/1/2015: the human face of the crisis >I understand that a net worth of ?500,000 (about $800,000) puts one in the >top 1% richest people in the world. > This, of course neglects to take into consideration what money can buy in > different countries, but it means most home owners with paid off mortgage > in London are part of the 1% in effect. > > I have always thought the concept of ?caveat emptor? was a thieves > charter/conmans dream, in as much as effectively the law is saying that if > you have dealt with a thief, or other criminal, and you did not notice > yourself that they were criminals that the loss is your own fault. > As a person who has almost always had dealings with honest, trustworthy > people I find the idea that Caveat emptor could be a legal defence > hateful. But that is just me! > cheers, > Frank D. > > >> On 2 Feb, 2015, at 04:07, Jayanand Govindaraj <jayanand at gmail.com> >> wrote: >> >> Nathan, >> The fact that the bank managers were criminals does not mean that the >> borrowers were not ignorant, gullible fools. Both are true, and the blame >> cannot be conveniently heaped on one side of the debate. Buyer beware - >> always! Our guilty sympathy always makes us take the side of the weaker >> party, but that is not always justified, either from a moral or a legal >> standpoint, it is just convenient for our mental well being. For example, >> in this forum there is a lot of noise about the 1% now and then. Have you >> realized that someone making minimum wage in Europe/USA is probably in >> the >> top 5-10% of income earners worldwide, on the same statistical basis that >> is used to calculate the 1%? >> Cheers >> Jayanand >> >> On Sun, Feb 1, 2015 at 10:41 PM, Nathan Wajsman <photo at frozenlight.eu> >> wrote: >> >>> Just to clarify: I do not know the borrowers in question personally, I >>> just read about them in the paper and went down to have a look. >>> >>> As for the culpability of banks vs. the couple?they were both in steady >>> employment and kept up the payments for 5 years before they got into >>> trouble due to unemployment. Not uncommon here in Spain in recent years. >>> The bank gains nothing except bad publicity out of this, legal basis >>> notwithstanding. >>> >>> Finally: what galls people is indeed that many bank managers in Spain >>> were >>> indeed criminals, enriching themselves at the expense of customers, >>> shareholders, and society. Until very recently, they seem to have gotten >>> away with murder, but fortunately cases are now being brought. I am not >>> talking about bad judgement, I am talking about criminal conduct. In >>> general, the finance sector in Spain is at least as corrupt as the >>> government. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Nathan >>> >>> Nathan Wajsman >>> >>> Alicante, Spain >>> http://www.frozenlight.eu >>> http://www.greatpix.eu >>> PICTURE OF THE WEEK: http://www.fotocycle.dk/paws >>> Blog: http://nathansmusings.wordpress.com/ >>> >>> Cycling: http://www.crazyguyonabike.com/belgiangator >>> >>> YNWA >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> On 01 Feb 2015, at 17:17, Jayanand Govindaraj <jayanand at gmail.com> >>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Nathan, >>>> My view, also as an ex banker, and with no love lost for the industry >>>> as >>> it >>>> is today, is that banks were greedy and criminal, but the borrowers >>>> were >>>> also greedy, and foolhardy to boot, to think that good times last >>> forever. >>>> The basis for the Law of Contract is caveat emptor (buyer beware) - and >>> the >>>> borrower is forever the buyer. In the case you have outlined, from a >>> legal >>>> standpoint, a cursory analysis tells me that the banks have a legal >>>> basis >>>> for what they have done. Your friends and the parents seem to have got >>> very >>>> bad advice when taking out the loan. >>>> Cheers >>>> Jayanand >>>> >>>> On Sun, Feb 1, 2015 at 1:56 PM, Nathan Wajsman <photo at frozenlight.eu> >>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Sonia and Paco are a young couple with two small daughters. Some years >>>>> ago, when both had jobs, they bought a home, worked, and made their >>>>> mortgage payments without any problems for 5 years. Then the crisis >>>>> hit, >>>>> Spain?s unemployment rate soared to 25%, and both of them lost their >>> jobs. >>>>> After some months, they were unable to make the mortgage payments and >>> the >>>>> bank foreclosed on them. But because of the fall in property prices, >>> their >>>>> debt exceeded the value of the house, and so the bank is trying to >>> collect >>>>> the remaining debt of 35,000 EUR by garnishing part of Sonia?s parents? >>>>> pension?they had co-guaranteed the loan when the mortgage was taken >>>>> out. >>>>> The couple and their daughters now live with Sonia?s parents, but with >>> the >>>>> bank?s demands the entire family is on the verge of falling into >>>>> extreme >>>>> poverty. Supported by a local NGO that campaigns against the banks? >>>>> predatory practices, they have set up a camp outside the BBVA branch >>> next >>>>> to the Mercado Central. I went there yesterday to have a look and a >>>>> chat >>>>> and to document it. They have now been there for 28 days. Their demand >>> is >>>>> that the bank stop garnishing Sonia?s parents? pension. >>>>> >>>>> Two snaps. First, the overall view of the encampment: >>>>> < >>>>> >>> http://www.greatpix.eu/All/Picture-A-Day/4253606_kdsZ6C#!i=3853988458&k=3zcKkQz&lb=1&s=O >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> People signing the petition in support of Sonia and Paco and in >>>>> general >>>>> demanding that the law be changed so that the debt is extinguished >>>>> once >>> the >>>>> house is taken by the bank: >>>>> < >>>>> >>> http://www.greatpix.eu/All/Picture-A-Day/4253606_kdsZ6C#!i=3853988612&k=GJs77dK&lb=1&s=O >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> And yes, I signed also. I am no populist but the banks ARE greedy >>>>> bastards. Just this week, 78 executives of another bank have been >>> charged >>>>> with fraud?they had been given ?black credit cards? by the bank which >>> they >>>>> could use freely, and of course this little fringe benefit was never >>>>> declared to the tax authorities. >>>>> >>>>> Cheers, >>>>> Nathan >>>>> >>>>> Nathan Wajsman >>>>> Alicante, Spain >>>>> http://www.frozenlight.eu <http://www.frozenlight.eu/> >>>>> http:// <http://www.greatpix.eu/>www.greatpix.eu >>>>> PICTURE OF THE WEEK: http://www.fotocycle.dk/paws < >>>>> http://www.fotocycle.dk/paws>Blog: >>>>> http://nathansmusings.wordpress.com/ >>> < >>>>> http://nathansmusings.wordpress.com/> >>>>> Cycling: http://www.crazyguyonabike.com/belgiangator < >>>>> http://www.crazyguyonabike.com/belgiangator> >>>>> YNWA >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Leica Users Group. >>>>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Leica Users Group. >>>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Leica Users Group. >>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Leica Users Group. >> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information > > > _______________________________________________ > Leica Users Group. > See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information