Archived posting to the Leica Users Group, 2009/11/01
[Author Prev] [Author Next] [Thread Prev] [Thread Next] [Author Index] [Topic Index] [Home] [Search]Frank I think fair to say that you have been quite prominent expressing your opinions here on several Leica issues recently? Also fair to say that some others think differently? I put several of your posts together here with nothing edited and I offer my responses below each. ..................................... This is exactly what I was talking about.... make noise for what you want....otherwise the manufacturer will have no idea that there is a demand....I signed up... and if the R10 is priced within my means, I am in for 2 of them.....Frank Filippone ...................................... *From my visit to Solms in June. The LUG does not have a high profile in Solms. They do look at other internet forums, with the (exclusively Leica content) L Camera Forum being the most prominent. Making noise here is not a very effective way of telling Leica your opinions. When the R10 cancellation was announced in June, Stefan Daniel estimated that a body would have cost 6,000 to 7,000 Euro. His recent video interview includes confirmation that they still don't believe the existing R lens owner pool is enough to make an R10 viable and Leica will not make a conventional dSLR.* *..............................................* Hey, if you don't speak your mind, the status quo continues.... and God knows, our beloved M8 cameras will be upgradeable forever......Right! Daniels has the company line to speak and repeat. He does so well. Yes, the M8/M9 are .68 VF cameras. Does that make it a) right, b) customer driven, c) the only choice Leica had d) my or your choice? I don't think there is history that says.. they could have, customers had no say, not my choice or preference. YMMV. They did not do a higher mag VF for some reason.. what that real reason is, is Leica's secret..... and they ain;t telling us. What I get upset at is the incessant statement that it can not be done. Or that there is no one that wants a higher mag VF.,... I do. I liked my M3 finder ... .91 and all that. Sure, it was useless if you had a 35mm lens on ( without eyes) but it was a wonderful shoot with a 50......Both eyes open..... remember what is was like to not get a headache if you were following the action with your M3, with both eyes..... so that you could see the action come into your frame? A .55, so I can see the 28 frames clearly with glasses, and a .42, so I can see the 21 frames clearly with glasses. I like the current M8/9 for 35's and above, but it's a bit too tight for the 35 and almost right for the 50. Maybe a 0.8. But right now, if I could have one body that showed me 21mm framelines, visible with glasses and another body that had the current framelines I'd be delighted. Sure it can be done. They already did it... the .85 and .58 M6TTL cameras are examples. Maybe you don't like the choices, maybe like me, the M6 28 finder is not visible with glasses in a .72 body ( not easily, at least), maybe they did it for time to market, stubborn Germanic marketing theories, or otherwise. But don't blindly say it can't be done or that they will not do it.....Market demand focuses efforts on the "impossible" and or stubbornly refused.....and the LUG is one way to getting the word to the uppers at Leica that there is a marketing need that needs addressing..... A higher Mag Digi-M would pump demand for the longer lenses, like the135 APO Telyt, make focusing easier and more accurate for the Nocti and Summilux 50 and 75, and Summicron 75, and 90 lenses, all valid reasons ( the main reason for the .85 M6) for a higher VF mag. If market demand created a White M8, then market demand can create a higher mag M8., M9, or M10. Whatever happens, never lose sight of the power of the consumer to get products they want, onto the shelves.... Speaking of which.. the M9.... No IR filter required, no smaller sensor..all impossible, or so we were told..... Nonsense. Marketing nonsense. Want better low light response than an M8 or M9? Complain, incessantly. It will come... So will my higher mag VF..... Frank Filippone .................................... The gentleman's name is Stefan Daniel, not Daniels. The reasons for a .68 VF in the M8 and M9 are that they use the same VF as the M7 (albeit with a different eyepiece) owing to the greater body thickness. Look through one if you can find one. It is the highest magnification that will allow the 28 framelines to be reasonably visible (without glasses). The same standard for all of the recent film cameras. Remember that the two alternate sets were dropped from standard film camera production some time back, presumably due to insufficient demand. Unless you have some evidence to the contrary? I have the M3 too; the finder was different and even more expensive to make as well. I agree that it is wonderfully clear and useful for the 50, 90 and 135. Since it did not natively support even the 35 frames that magnification was dropped a very long time ago. Leica listening to customer demands. The .85 was meant to be a compromise (and the .58 at the other end). If those versions were sufficiently in demand, why did Leica drop them? That 135 is by all reports a superb lens but it evidently does not sell in comparable quantities to the wider types. I just don't see any case for expecting that Leica might make any variations on the M9 design anytime soon since clearly they are working as hard as possible on just trying to meet the existing initial demand. ................................... I would think of my criticism as both constructive and market driven.... not a bad combination to listen to, if I were Leica...... Companies tend to think that they know what is best. The problem is that sometimes they get tunnel vision or desperately believe their own marketing hype. What they need to do is to listen to customers, objectively evaluate the criticism, and take action. A hard but necessary corporate survival reality. If I can be a voice of the user, if only 1 user, and make what are constructive criticisms, I will. And make no apologies for it. Frank Filippone ................................. Frank, Leica already has a CEO and business plan ;-) Fair to say that some customers or potential customers may also tend to think that they know best, sometimes get tunnel vision etc?? ................................. What other major development can save their company? The S2? The M9 already exists, I was referring to new camera product development. If I go back just a few months, then my recommended priority was #1 FF M8, #2 a Digi FF SLR, #3 new optics to go with the DigiR. Deep 6 the S2, continue with the rebranded products to bring in some short term profits. Followed by product tweaks. R Bodies: Poor seller? The R8, introduced in 1996, was one of the last high end SLR Film cameras. It was hideously behind in features compared to Nikon and Canon. But it did take R glass. By 1999, the R8 and R9 was selling against the Digi-SLR rebellion ( Nikon D1 introduced in 1999). The R9 was never going to be a big winner, when everyone was buying digital. If it had been a Digi camera, it might have been Leica's best seller! Think of all the R fans out there that would beat down the doors to use their R glass with a Digi R and not gone Canon or Nikon..I am already on record.. the S2 "stole" resources from the R10, and for that reason alone it should have been cancelled. Leica does not make the X1. It is a financial strategy. As it does not steal a large amount of resources from the R+D team, I am neutral on its existence. Anyone that does not like the X1 because of its features ( or whatever reason you wish to put here) is going out and buying a $13-20K of M9 stuff? I doubt they buyers are in the same camp. 2 different markets, with little to no overlap. .......................... See response above ;-) Yes obviously Leica Camera AG believes that the S2 will allow them to compete in a particular (different) market segment. They do not believe that they can compete in the 'shark pool' of dSLRs. Leica considered the "digital CL' concept as a more affordable M entry but assessed that it would be competing with both the M8/9 and the used M8 market. That last is their assessmnt of the best entry point for people not prepared/able to pay the M8/9 new prices. ......................... I've read that Nikon is making the camera, I also heard Panasonic.... but that may or may not be correct. They are all rumors.. The differeing question is... do you really believe Leica is building a $2K camera with lens and 12MP sensor? Themselves? In Germany/Portugal/EU? Has anyone visiting the Leica factory seen the X1 being manufactured there? We have videos and personal tales of the M9 being made in Germany. But the X1? NADA. The S2 uses resources. My opinion is that the focus should have been on the Digi-R. So, my comment that the S2 stole resources from the Digi-R. Did they start/stop/ever think about a Digi-R? Maybe, but if they had followed what I believe is a #1 priority, the Digi-R, the resources were misdirected to the S2. As a film camera, they were way behind the 8 ball.... features lacking all over the place. But optics? #1. The market for a digital SLR something that takes R lenses and uses the full AE, etc, would be quite robust..... the market for another high end MF DIgi camera, in a field of entrenched manufacturers, with no installed base of lenses available to set the stage (see the Hasselblad V Line), is significantly smaller, and in my opinion, may really not exist beyond the really rich amateur. And thus my choice for R+D expenditures.... Digi-R. Ok.. I'll say it more bluntly.... You have proof otherwise? It is not a debate over who is building the X1... If I thought Leica was, I would be all over their case. Get back on the subject... the Digi-R. ........................ Leica has carefully stated that the X1 will be assembled in Germany. Clearly not every component will be made there. The same situation to a greater or lesser extent as the M9 for example. I thought that the X1 sensor origin was pretty well known but I haven't seen it officially in print so I won't repeat it again here. Since its not even in production yet and only exists as a few prototypes, maybe wait until they actually produce some and see what is shown? Cheers Geoff The new LEICA M9 -Passion for perfect pictures. http://www.m.leica-camera.com http://gallery.leica-users.org/v/gh/ http://www.pbase.com/hoppyman