[Leica] Peter's article on Wagner is up

[douglas.sharp at gmx.de (Douglas Sharp)]

I agree wholeheartedly, Doug.

I can fully understand the emotions behind not wishing to listen to 
music associated with the darkest period of European history.

This is however, IMHO, not the fault of the music or its composer, but 
rather acts of brutality that became associated with this music, and, in 
consequence its composer, long after it was composed.

Does anyone really throw Richard Strauss (e.g.The Alpine Symphony or, 
perhaps better known, Zarathustra - later to be used as a theme in 2001 
Space Odyssey) in the same pot as Wagner? He was particularly well 
assimilated into the cultural workings of Nazi Germany and the circles 
frequented by a certain Herr Goebbels.

Karajan is often accused in this context, but F?rtw?ngler and other 
German conductors only to a lesser extent, so where do we draw the line?

Do we apply the categories of denazification?

    * V. Exonerated, or non-incriminated persons
    * IV. Followers 
    * III. Less incriminated 
    * II. Activists, Militants, and Profiteers, or Incriminated
      Persons,  aka Ardent Supporters
    * I. Major Offenders 

But how should this apply to Wagner, long deceased before the Nazis' 
rise to power? The Nazis were, in part, HIS followers or ardent 
supporters - De-Wagnerisation as a remedy?

Is this why Karl-Heinz Stockhausen began to compose his unmelodious 
cacophonies? Or why there were so many German composers of 12-tone or 
completely atonal music after WWII?

Should a form of denazification not also have been demanded for "heroes" 
like Charles Lindbergh, Disney, a businessman by the name of Bush, the 
bosses of IBM and Standard Oil (who had tankers off the Portuguese coast 
refueling U-boats and closed a deal exchanging know-how for coal 
hydration and synthetic rubbers), and General Motors, who continued to 
deliver motor blocks and were very quick to demand the license fees for 
GM patents used by Opel to produce Wehrmacht trucks during the war 
(along with Ford who almost immediately demanded compensation for the 
bomb damage to the Ford truck factory in Cologne)?

Or to the fascist leaders and their supporters in countries that were 
invaded by the axis powers or in countries that fought with the allies?

It is a well-known fact that the victors always write the history books 
and come across as the "good guys".

The fact that Wagner was an anti-semite remains undisputed, however, 
this would have very probably have gone more or less unnoticed had the 
Nazi party not come to power. Many other composers in Russia, Britain, 
France, Austria and Italy, and many from Eastern European states, were 
equally anti-semitic, but are not seen in the same light as Wagner. 

The fact is that, long before Hitler even entered the scenario, intense 
anti-semitism was widespread throught Europe and many other parts of the 
world (as it is today, to a certain extent). And, surprisingly for some, 
to a far lesser extent in Germany than in other countries like Russia, 
France, Britain and Poland.

It is well known that Gustav Mahler, although Jewish, and hounded out of 
Hamburg for this reason, was a great admirer (and conductor) of Wagner's 
works and openly admitted that Wagner substantially influenced his own 
works, despite the fact that he was well aware of Wagner's extremely 
anti-semitic views.

Douglas

Doug Herr wrote:
> Not to condone Wagner's anti-semite views, but it seems his music is 
> guilty mostly by association with the Nazis.  I wonder - and this is an 
> honest question - among those who refuse to listen to Wagner's music, is 
> there a similar response to the products of other well-known anti-semites, 
> such as Disney and Ford?
>
> Doug Herr
> Birdman of Sacramento
> http://www.wildlightphoto.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>   
>> From: Geoff Hopkinson <hopsternew at gmail.com>
>> Sent: Aug 7, 2009 5:23 PM
>> To: Leica Users Group <lug at leica-users.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Leica] Peter's article on Wagner is up
>>
>> Steve I understand what you said.
>> Given my friend Nathan's reasons I thought it worthwhile to support him.
>> I cannot begin to comprehend how someone with Nathan's heritage would 
>> feel.
>> It's not an academic subject for generic discussion for him or millions of
>> others.
>>
>> 2009/8/8 Steve Barbour <steve.barbour at gmail.com>
>>
>>     
>>> On Aug 7, 2009, at 8:04 AM, Geoff Hopkinson wrote:
>>>
>>> Steve, it is that simple for Nathan though, which is what he has said.
>>>       
>>>> Naturally his strong views are unsurprising.
>>>> Nathan has read the article though and complimented Peter on the quality
>>>> of
>>>> his writing, despite those very understandable views.
>>>>
>>>>         
>>> well aware Geoff, though I was trying to keep this generic,
>>>
>>> but thanks for pointing out the obvious...
>>>
>>>
>>> Steve
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>       
>>>> 2009/8/8 Steve Barbour <steve.barbour at gmail.com>
>>>>
>>>> Very well written article. For me, it is not that complicated. Wagner
>>>>         
>>>>>> was a Nazi before the Nazi party even existed, and I will not touch
>>>>>>             
>>>>>>> his music with a flagpole
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>               
>>>>> it is not that simple,
>>>>>
>>>>> at least...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> if it were...I would find out the composers the Nazi's didn't like...
>>>>>
>>>>> they would be my favorite composers....
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Steve
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Leica Users Group.
>>>>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>           
>>>> --
>>>> Cheers
>>>> Geoff
>>>> Alles was eine gute Kamera braucht / Everything a good camera needs:
>>>>
>>>> http://gallery.leica-users.org/v/gh/
>>>> http://www.pbase.com/hoppyman
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Leica Users Group.
>>>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information
>>>>
>>>>         
>>> best,
>>>
>>> Steve
>>>
>>> steve.barbour at gmail.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Leica Users Group.
>>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information
>>>
>>>       
>>
>> -- 
>> Cheers
>> Geoff
>> Alles was eine gute Kamera braucht / Everything a good camera needs:
>>
>> http://gallery.leica-users.org/v/gh/
>> http://www.pbase.com/hoppyman
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Leica Users Group.
>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information
>>     
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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