Archived posting to the Leica Users Group, 2006/03/21

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Subject: [Leica] Lets start a Leica equipment discussion
From: philippe.orlent at (Philippe Orlent)
Date: Tue Mar 21 13:28:01 2006
References: <>

Don't think so. This thread is just starting to get interesting...
One of the true questions emerged: what is true talent? And is talent  
really necessary to produce personal work?
And what is the difference between personal work and differentiating  
work and outstanding work...
Personnaly I like discovering the search for a signature of some on  
this group the most.
Plus the knowledge that it is easier to discover the signature of  
another than of his own.

Op 21-mrt-06, om 22:15 heeft B. D. Colen het volgende geschreven:

> I know we should take this off-line, and probably it should be  
> continued
> face-to-face over beer, scotch, or Diet Coke...But...
> On 3/21/06 2:32 PM, "Barney Quinn" <> wrote:
>> I think that people "should" try to find their own voices, develop  
>> their own
>> styles, and cultivate their own vision so that it can be shared  
>> with other
>> people.
>> A bit too much like new age babble, but important none the less.
>> If I understand your point it goes something like this. The Dvorak  
>> Cello
>> Concerto (
>> actually there are two ) remains the Dvorak Cello Concerto no  
>> matter who made
>> the
>> cello on which it is played. If the same cellist played it on a  
>> different
>> cello the
>> tone and color might be different, but things might be changed at  
>> the level of
>> matters of taste, but not in any significant way. The work of an  
>> artist
>> transcends
>> the hardware. Do I have it anything like correct? Because I agree  
>> with you.
>> You can
>> spot a piece of chamber music by Brahms from a mile away, even if  
>> you aren't
>> familiar with the particular piece you are hearing, and it is  
>> nothing like
>> Beethoven's chamber music. I think that the same is true of the  
>> photographic
>> masters.
> I have a problem with this entire line of argument, Barney, because  
> Dvoark
> wrote his Cello Concerto, and Brahms wrote his chamber music, for  
> other
> musicians to play them. Playing them involves interpreting them, as  
> best one
> can. An inept musician, playing an inferior instrument, will turn  
> the best
> piece of music into something painful to all within hearing range.  
> A gifted
> musician will  turn it into something sublime - and the better the
> instrument, the more sublime the interpretation will be.
> HCB did not create his art for others to copy or ape - he created it
> because, as an artist, he had to create it. And if he created it  
> for an
> external reason - other than making money ;-) - he created it to be  
> seen and
> enjoyed.
> I bet you could make a very accurate guess about who took a
>> particular
>> high level image, even if you hadn't seen the image before. HCB  
>> then remains
>> HCB no
>> matter what kind of camera he was using, and getting to the core  
>> of what his
>> work
>> is all about isn't about hardware.
>> I have a question for the group which I will disguise as a  
>> question to you.
>> What
>> does it mean to imitate an artist like HCB? How will you know that  
>> you have
>> succeeded in the endeavor to imitate him? I'll also offer an  
>> observation in
>> the
>> hope that it might generate some comment. I think that there are  
>> many areas of
>> human endeavor ranging from photography to music to golf to god  
>> knows what
>> which
>> involve hardware and where you can observe exactly the same  
>> pattern. To a
>> beginner
>> the quality of the hardware used doesn't matter much. As you start  
>> to learn to
>> play
>> the cello you have to struggle so hard just to learn to hold the  
>> cello and get
>> the
>> bow to work that it makes no difference who made the equipment.  
>> You will sound
>> equally bad no matter what. But, equipment does make a difference  
>> to people in
>> the
>> mid range. You do get to a point where a decent cello can help you  
>> grow and it
>> can
>> make you sound better because it isn't placing obstacles in your  
>> path which
>> you
>> need to overcome. I think that the upper stages equipment ceases  
>> to matter. I
>> was
>> at a master class with Yo-Yo Ma. He picked up a twenty-five  
>> hundred dollar
>> student
>> instrument so that he could demonstrate something. He sounded like  
>> he was
>> playing
>> his strad. I am sure that you and Ted and Tina could take prize  
>> winning
>> pictures
>> with a holga.
>> Past a point hardware is irrelevant.
>> Barney
> Thank you for putting me in such august company :-), but I'm going to
> disagree with you once again - and this disagreement may shock many  
> on this
> list:
> I believe that if you give a beginner - in almost any endeavor - he  
> or she
> will do better at the endeavor than they would with "beginner"  
> equipment.
> Give someone trying to learn how to play the guitar a cheap, steel  
> string
> Kay guitar, and the horrible instrument, with its rediculously high  
> bridge,
> will get in their way, perhaps to the point where they will give up  
> the
> guitar. Give that same person a Martin D-35, and even playing  
> simply cords
> they will coax a wonderful sound out of the instrument - I've been  
> there,
> done that. :-) Give a kid a cheap starter violin, and you may get an
> entirely different result than if you were insane enough to hand  
> that same
> child a serious instrument. Give a beginning photographer a cheap  
> camera
> with inferior optics, and you may get different results than if you  
> give
> that same person an easy to use, well designed camera with superior  
> optics -
> and I don't mean a Leica M because many beginning photographers really
> struggle with rangefinders. :-)
> However - give a world-class guitarist, violinist, photographer,  
> those same
> inferior instruments, and that artist will bring all his or her  
> well-honed
> skills to bear and eke out every smidgen of quality that lurks  
> within the
> inferior instrument.
>> "B. D. Colen" wrote:
>>> Hi, Barney - Of course I don't think that people shouldn't try.  
>>> But try to
>>> be what, and try what?
>> --
>> Barney Quinn, Jr.
>> (301) 688-1982 (O)
>> (240) 535-3036 (C)
>> (877) 220-0981 (P)
>> _______________________________________________
>> Leica Users Group.
>> See for more information
> _______________________________________________
> Leica Users Group.
> See for more information

Replies: Reply from abridge at (Adam Bridge) ([Leica] Lets start a Leica equipment discussion)
Reply from r.s.taylor at (Richard S. Taylor) ([Leica] Lets start a Leica equipment discussion)
In reply to: Message from bdcolen at (B. D. Colen) ([Leica] Lets start a Leica equipment discussion)