Archived posting to the Leica Users Group, 2006/03/21

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Subject: [Leica] WAS: enough with Olympus NOW HCB
From: walt at waltjohnson.com (Walt Johnson)
Date: Tue Mar 21 07:47:03 2006
References: <C0457FAB.E2FE%bdcolen@comcast.net>

B.D.:

I was kidding about Smith. Of course, much like Frankie, he did it his 
way. Regarding the Capa shot, it isn't a question of believing whether 
or not the instant could be captured. It's looking at the images as a 
whole and wondering where the hell the visual corroboration of death 
went.. Take a look at the images of the "living soldiers" looking down 
the barrels of their rifles. See the soon to be dead one? There is no 
doubt this issue won't be settled till we see all of Capa's take.

Smith's photo of the Haitian madwoman was worked on, not faked. He 
didn't drag some women into the ward and say now act nuts. Dramatizing 
(or over dramatizing) isn't in the same league as "practicing" war photos.

Walt

p.s. Next,you'll be telling me Oswald shot JFK!


B. D. Colen wrote:

>Smith? Well, for a starter there was the sandwiching of negatives to create
>the gorgeous portrait of Albert Schweitzer....Then there was the posing of
>some of the Spanish Village stuff, and need we go into the startling Haitian
>madwoman shot? Take a look at the original, and at the resulting image.
>Don't get me wrong - Smith is one of my heroes; but times, and standards,
>have changed.
>
>As to Capa - this one was hashed out here at great length a while back. The
>latest discussions of it - not on the LUG - included tracking Capa on the
>day in question, as well as tracking the whereabouts of the unit in question
>and the "dying soldier." It appears that he died when and where Capa
>photographed him.
>
>If it's a fake, it's a fake - and should be seen as such - to hell with
>great faked statements about war. ;-)  But having read the most recent
>explanations, I'm satisfied that it was real.
>
>Hell, if Robert Jackson could get the instant that Ruby's bullet struck
>Oswald's gut, if Eddie Adams could get the instant that the bullet fired by
>Nguyen Ngoc Loan tore through the head of a Viet Cong prisoner, why the
>problem believing that Capa could get that shot?
>
>
>
>
>On 3/21/06 9:51 AM, "Walt Johnson" <walt@waltjohnson.com> wrote:
>
>  
>
>>B.D.:
>>
>>Au contraire, mon ami....Whalen's bio was far from definitive and
>>seemed  he was picking up the soap when Cornell Capa hit the showers.
>>I'm sure you know how easy it is to elicit the responses needed to
>>"verify" a particular point of view. Whelan interviewed family members
>>decades later and had his corroboration? I'm sure the soldier eventually
>>caught his lunch, maybe even that day or that week. I'm also sure if two
>>soldiers are shot in the same location(as evidenced by the second image)
>>and the same time (see the identical cloud formations)  the image will
>>indicate the mayhem. Hell, they even fell the same way.
>>
>>The worst aspect of the controversy is the attitude of all the Capa
>>apologists.Don't know if it was Whalen or someone else who said it did
>>not matter whether the image was real or not because it made a "great
>>statement about war". That is, to the best of my knowledge, the
>>rationale used.
>>
>>Regarding HC B, 
>>
>>/*If it were a situation expected to occur then maybe but slice of life???*
>>(and I quote me) 8-) /
>>
>>Walt
>>
>>What, W. Eugene faked stuff???
>>
>>
>>
>>B. D. Colen wrote:
>>
>>    
>>
>>>Well, Walt, for whatever it's worth -
>>>After years of dispute about, and questioning of the Capa "dying soldier,"
>>>a couple years back Capa biographer Richard Whalen seems to have finally
>>>established that the image was genuine. Whalen tracked down the unit in
>>>question, and established that the right soldier had been shot in that
>>>manner in the right place on the right date.
>>>
>>>As to the HCB shot...as I've heard the story, numerous people were jumping
>>>across the puddle, and HCB shot through a fence as they did. Apparently 
>>>this
>>>was one of a number of puddle-jumping attempts he shot...at least that was
>>>his story and he was sticking to it.
>>>
>>>I think we sometimes forget how well people used to do with simple
>>>equipment, no motor drives, etc. There was a book I remember seeing in the
>>>60s of spectacular photos of a game played in snow and mud - I think it 
>>>was
>>>the 1958 sudden death playoff between the Giants and the Baltimore Colts,
>>>sometimes referred to as the greatest football game ever played. Anyway, 
>>>the
>>>images are still with me - and I'll bet most of them were shot without
>>>motors. Hell, some may have been shot with Speed Graphics....;-)
>>>
>>>So could HCB have actually seen and shot that jumper? Sure.
>>>
>>>Now if you want to talk about setting things up, let's talk about another 
>>>of
>>>the true greats - Gene Smith. ;-)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>On 3/20/06 9:39 PM, "Walt Johnson" <walt@waltjohnson.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> 
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>>>B.D.,
>>>>
>>>>Now that we are back on course and discussion  images I have a question.
>>>>Do you think the Saint-Lazare puddle jumper was a set up? Know anyone
>>>>quick enough to get a scene like that with an old 1930s Leica? If it
>>>>were a situation expected to occur then maybe but slice of life???
>>>>Another questionable image is Capa's /Loyalist Soldier /bitting the
>>>>dust. Having seen a sequence of that take I'll never believe it is real.
>>>>
>>>>Would be very interested in your opinion.... Really admire HCB and Capa
>>>>and don't think these instances made them less than great. As you know,
>>>>sometimes we get carried away with enthusiasm. Can you imagine Capa
>>>>returning home from Spain  and finding fame waiting  there?  Sure, he is
>>>>going to jump in with both feet and say "hey fellas, that guy didn't
>>>>really get shot". Well, at least when we die and get to Photographer
>>>>Hell we can ask them in person.
>>>>
>>>>Walt
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>B. D. Colen wrote:
>>>>
>>>>   
>>>>
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>>>As I always tell my students - the "decisive moment" isn't the moment 
>>>>>you
>>>>>release the shutter, it's the instant when you see the photographic
>>>>>possibilities in a situation and start working it. Think of the HCB 
>>>>>photo
>>>>>of
>>>>>the guy jumping the puddle - the decisive moment was that instant when 
>>>>>he
>>>>>saw the puddle through the fence, and realized what he could make of it.
>>>>>The
>>>>>photo of the bike going past the bottom of the staircase? That would be 
>>>>>the
>>>>>moment he realize that the stair case and the curved street could yield 
>>>>>a
>>>>>visually interesting image - because of course we know that HCB was far
>>>>>more
>>>>>interested in form, light, shapes and shadow than he was in people and
>>>>>events. ;-)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>On 3/20/06 7:42 PM, "Ted Grant" <tedgrant@shaw.ca> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>     
>>>>>
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>>>>HCB contact sheets. He said he was amazed at what a prolific shooter 
>>>>>>>HCB
>>>>>>>              
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>was- shot after shot after shot after shot of the same subject, worked
>>>>>>>    
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>         
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>              
>>>>>>>
>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>Leica Users Group.
>>>>>See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>     
>>>>>
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>Leica Users Group.
>>>>See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information
>>>>   
>>>>
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>Leica Users Group.
>>>See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information
>>>
>>>
>>> 
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>Leica Users Group.
>>See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information
>>    
>>
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Leica Users Group.
>See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information
>
>
>  
>

Replies: Reply from bdcolen at comcast.net (B. D. Colen) ([Leica] WAS: enough with Olympus NOW HCB)
In reply to: Message from bdcolen at comcast.net (B. D. Colen) ([Leica] WAS: enough with Olympus NOW HCB)