Archived posting to the Leica Users Group, 2005/08/11

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Subject: [Leica] B&W elementary tech
From: robertmeier at usjet.net (Robert Meier)
Date: Thu Aug 11 13:49:06 2005
References: <BF211C1A.390D%bdcolen@comcast.net><02c901c59eaa$59100c20$0400a8c0@robertbxucevjs> <42FBB58E.4030102@adrenaline.com>

It isn't metamerism I've seen in the MIS prints from the C86.   The prints 
are quite neutral in tone and that doesn't change with the viewing light. 
What I have seen is a reflection off the prints made on Ilford Pearl paper 
that has a bit of a magenta to bluish cast.   This is the reflection off the 
Pearl surface, not the image itself.    And I've only seen it with the Pearl 
paper, but I really like the Pearl paper (I've used it in its original wet 
version for a long time), and I wish it weren't there.  (It isn't there in 
the wet version Pearl prints.)


> I'm surprised you're seeing metamerism (sp? - reflective color cast) using 
> the
> dedicated MIS inks, assuming these are matte paper images. As one departs 
> from
> the near-pure-carbon "warm" tones, there will be some pigment introduced 
> to
> produced a more neutral gray tone. Whether that neutral looks "neutral" to 
> you is
> a common issue.  Often a cool and neutral digital tones look a bit 
> purplish to my
> eye.  But then, thank goodness I like warm toned prints :-)
>
> Recently I read an interesting post where a fellow took a bunch of silver 
> prints on
> different papers and a colorimeter (term?) and found that there were 
> several variants
> on a "neutral tone" in wet printing as well.
>
> Scott
>
>
> Robert Meier wrote:
>
>> I will concede that, although I have never personally seen and handled a 
>> digital print that is, IMHO, every bit as good as a good silver print. 
>> But my experience with digital prints is limited, so I concede it.   I 
>> have made B&W prints with MIS inks on a C86 that look very, very good. 
>> But there is always something that is wrong with them -- the reflections 
>> off the surface have a strange color cast, even though the print itself 
>> is neutral gray, or the details in a brick wall just aren't there the way 
>> they are in the silver print, or the grey of the sky isn't as smooth as 
>> the sky in the silver print.
>>
>>
>>> You're welcome. Bob...BUT...Let me stress that I believe that in the 
>>> hands
>>> of a skilled practitioner, a digital print can be every bit as "good" as 
>>> a
>>> good silver print. :-)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 8/11/05 2:42 PM, "Robert Meier" <robertmeier@usjet.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> BD,  Thank you for setting that straight.   Unfortunately that view of
>>>> digital being vastly superior to wet prints seems to be becoming the 
>>>> new
>>>> orthodxy among a lot of photographers.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> God I never thought I'd end up defending wet prints...but Walt, the
>>>>> suggestion that " Adobe Photoshop, Nikon Coolscan and a good Epson
>>>>> printer(
>>>>> in the right hands) can blow away most wet prints" is complete and 
>>>>> utter
>>>>> nonsense, assuming you're referring to wet printing "in the right 
>>>>> hands."
>>>>>
>>>>> Digital printing is digital printing, whether using the OEM inks, or
>>>>> systems
>>>>> such as the Cone quadtones, or MIS inks. And silver printing is silver
>>>>> printing. Both will, in the hands of a competent printer, produce 
>>>>> gorgeous
>>>>> results. But neither will be 'better' than the other.
>>>>>
>>>>> Now, if you want to say that a competent digital printer can more 
>>>>> quickly
>>>>> produce, and infinitely more quickly reproduce a print than even the 
>>>>> best
>>>>> wet printer, you're absolutely correct. :-)
>>>>> B. D.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 8/11/05 1:58 PM, "Walt Johnson" <walt@waltjohnson.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Bill:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You can certainly scan you b&w negative and print on an inkjet with 
>>>>>> good
>>>>>> results. As a matter of fact, a few simple tools can insure better
>>>>>> results
>>>>>> than a Focomat V35.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Adobe Photoshop, Nikon Coolscan and a good Epson printer( in the 
>>>>>> right
>>>>>> hands)
>>>>>> can blow away most wet prints. Most importantly, the results are
>>>>>> repeatable.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There are some very good links on the subject  and one of the best is
>>>>>> Clayton
>>>>>> Jones. http://www.cjcom.net/articles/digiprn1.htm
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Walt  J.
>>>>>> walt@waltjohnson.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Leica Users Group.
>>>>>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Leica Users Group.
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>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>>
>>
>>
>>
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>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> 



Replies: Reply from Jim at hemenway.com (Jim Hemenway) ([Leica] B&W elementary tech)
In reply to: Message from bdcolen at comcast.net (B. D. Colen) ([Leica] B&W elementary tech)
Message from robertmeier at usjet.net (Robert Meier) ([Leica] B&W elementary tech)
Message from scott at adrenaline.com (Scott McLoughlin) ([Leica] B&W elementary tech)