Archived posting to the Leica Users Group, 2005/04/13

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Subject: [Leica] Re: Macro comparison or why flash does not look like flash
From: dorysrus at mindspring.com (Don Dory)
Date: Wed Apr 13 19:13:56 2005

You can use flash in macro without being obvious because the flash head
is big enough in comparison to the subject to be a soft box, usually a
rather large soft box.  So, if you move the flash off camera, or better
yet use two flashes at different power levels you can freeze the action
at f22.

Which is why this year your dose of spring is all flashless, no tripod,
and typically shot at F2 or wider.  You know, push the limits, try for a
different look, break the mold, explore really bad lenses, try a long
telephoto with extension tubes and a two element close up lens (coming
soon to a screen near you).

Don
dorysrus@mindspring.com

-----Original Message-----
From: lug-bounces+dorysrus=mindspring.com@leica-users.org
[mailto:lug-bounces+dorysrus=mindspring.com@leica-users.org] On Behalf
Of Mark Rabiner
Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2005 8:42 PM
To: Leica Users Group
Subject: Re: [Leica] Re: Macro comparison

On 4/13/05 9:12 AM, "Douglas Sharp" <douglas.sharp@gmx.de> typed:

> Mark and Phil,
> I've been using both lenses and some others for the past 10 days,
about 1100
> macro and normal shots so far, and the Leica just isn't up to the
quality of
> the 
> Yashica for what I'm doing.The other Leica lenses used for larger
flower
> shots, 
> Summicron 2/35 Summicron 2/50, 28mm have all been spot on, as have a
Zeiss
> 1,7/50 and a Pentax 2,5/135mm.I don't think I have a "focus blindness"
on this
> one particular lens, particularly considering the fact that it has
mostly been
> used at f16 or f22. Focussed wide open and then stopped down to the
working
> aperture. Even with a viewfinder magnifier the results probably
wouldn't be
> any 
> better. I think the flower pictures prove the point. If not, the focus
chart
> shots may.
> And to be quite honest about it, I'll stick with the lens that's
producing the
> best results.
> cheers
> Douglas
> 
> 
Great Doug but what doe "Spot on" mean your getting them in focus?
;-) (obnoxious smiley face)
Maybe your groundglass likes one lens more.
Leica nut that I am I'm not really feeling all that threatened by some
very
old Leica macro optic not measuring up to a modern lens. Even if that
modern
lens has the overwhelmingly uninspiring name of "Yashica".
The main advantage for the Yashica system was that it had maybe ok
sometimes
maybe better than ok optics but you could put Zeiss made in Japan stuff
on
it which really was pretty good. Certainly something to give Nikon/Canon
a
run for their money.  One or two Zeiss made in Germany as well I think.

Macro photography when people get into it they realize that it's a
little
hard to do casually If they are hoping to match the results they've seen
in
magazines or books. Its a lot more difficult than it looks.
You need to stop way down and use an ultra fast shutter speed at the
same
time. It would help if the earth was a little closer the the sun. and
the
sun was not a hot light.

There's plenty ways to go wrong in a macro shot. And always another way
lurking around the corner.
You've shown us in that last test pitfalls of figuring out if you've
really
hit your focus or not. Comparing an out of focus area of one image
against
an in focus area of another image and making a qualification.
So when you tell me some middle of the road optic made to a fraction of
the
higher tolerances of anything Leica ever made is better than a solid
(though
older) Leica be I'm not inclined to automatically believe that without
visual proof.
But I've gotten to the point where I just don't believe TALK about
lenses.
As I'm getting to feel that TALKING about lenses its like dancing about
architecture.
The pictures should be out on the table.
And speaking for themselves.
As you just did with your test.
which we were able to qualify accordion-ly.

If there was some scratching in the brass in that shot we could be
looking
out it might make a better going on viable lens test. All it think we're
testing here which such smooth surfaces and lack of detail is contrast
and
contrast and be arrived at in plenty of different ways. Especially when
we
get in the digital realm.
Or testing if the focus of your optics is matching your focus on your
groundglass.
Lucky is was a round (like the Earth) not flat subject.
If it was newspapers on the wall we could have easily been comparing an
in
focus image with an out of focus image, sold all our Leicas, and never
known
the difference. I'm sure this happens all the time.

Contrast can be arrived at in plenty of different ways.
Making you think a lens has more or less contrast than it really has.
Maybe contrast is being compensated for and you don't even know it.
Often tests end up being in effect a test of unsharp masking and not
much
else. Not on your last one perhaps.
And contrast can later compensated for so you wonder if it's a little
beside
the point. Like color saturation.
By the way you were locking the mirror up?

Shooting flowers is not a great way to find out if you have a cutting
edge
macro lens or not - for the making of fast generalizing of one lens over
another.
Flowers are soft and mushy unless someone's been out spray painting the
roses red with a high rez bar code stencil.
And they move in the breeze. Even when you don't see them do it. And are
real hard to get all in focus in a real close-up.
You get the pestle. But not much mortar.

Lots of Twinkie-light hating people when they get into macro end up
taking
the Twinkie defense. As they, with most serious macro photography are
much
more an intricate part of the ballgame than even the photojournalists
who
you see always with their flashes on camera even at high noon at the
salt
flats; especially then.

With the flash making you able to shoot at f22 or 16 with an effective
shutter speed because of flash duration of 1/200,000 of a second you are
going to obtain some sharpness in a macro shot somewhere.
Often though not where you thought you'd like it.
Its so easy to mis your focus Even at f22.
Ironically it can make using a tripod not really crucial.
Things are moving in the breeze anyway.
They help you bracket your focus that way. Your you blast away with your
motor drive. Mirror lock up would not be necessary if you were using
flash.

The prevalent technique of macro photography with a flash on a 3 foot
coiled
usually TTL cord makes for shots which you'd never think were flash
shots in
a million years. And with no fancier technique than this. No bounce. No
cards. No mini soft boxes. As in the bulk of the quality macro shots out
there in our collective unconscious....  That's how they're shot.

It's not real obvious why macro flash does not look like macro flash but
passes easily for natural light. I think it's somehow the out of context
ness of it.

A rose by any other light source.




Mark Rabiner
Photography
Portland Oregon
http://rabinergroup.com/




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In reply to: Message from mark at rabinergroup.com (Mark Rabiner) ([Leica] Re: Macro comparison)