Archived posting to the Leica Users Group, 2005/03/11

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Subject: [Leica] RD-1 users: Light loss with fast lenses?
From: bdcolen at earthlink.net (B. D. Colen)
Date: Fri Mar 11 16:08:02 2005

I haven't noticed it with the Olympus lenses. But, one, I don't spend my
time running tests comparing light levels; and, two, all I was
commenting on was the fact that Olympus doesn't recommend using the
Zuiko lenses at anything near maximum apertures on the E-1. 

B. D.

-----Original Message-----
From: lug-bounces+bdcolen=earthlink.net@leica-users.org
[mailto:lug-bounces+bdcolen=earthlink.net@leica-users.org] On Behalf Of
Dan C
Sent: Friday, March 11, 2005 4:28 PM
To: Leica Users Group
Subject: RE: [Leica] RD-1 users: Light loss with fast lenses?


I haven't notiticed this with my 35/1.4 Minolta lens on either my Maxxum
9 film camera nor my new Maxxum 7D DSLR.  The 1.4 aperture appears to be
"true".

-dan c.

At 12:27 PM 11-03-05 -0500, B. D. Colen wrote:
>Keep in mind that Olympus long resisted the use of the old Zuiko lenses

>on the E-1, and when they finally gave out an OM to E-1 adapter, they 
>listed the aperture range at which the lenses should be used - and not 
>a single lens was recommended for use at anywhere near the maximum F 
>stop. So it's hardly surprising that you're finding what you're 
>finding.
>
>That said, I've used the 50 1.2 on my E-1 - at 1.2 (why else would I 
>use
>it?) - turning it into a 100 f 1.2, and have gotten some surprisingly
>good results. I also used the 21 f2. 
>
>B. D.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: lug-bounces+bdcolen=earthlink.net@leica-users.org
>[mailto:lug-bounces+bdcolen=earthlink.net@leica-users.org] On Behalf Of

>Henning Wulff
>Sent: Friday, March 11, 2005 11:43 AM
>To: Leica Users Group
>Subject: Re: [Leica] RD-1 users: Light loss with fast lenses?
>
>
>At 8:50 PM -0800 3/10/05, Peter Klein wrote:
>>Folks: I've noticed an interesting phenomenon with my E-1 and fast OM 
>>Zuiko lenses, and I'm curious if something similar happens with RF 
>>lenses on the RD-1.
>>
>>The widest apertures don't give me as much light on the E-1 as they do

>>on film. My 50/1.4 is more like a 50/1.8 wide open.  My 50/1.8 is more

>>like a 50/2.
>>
>>Note that I'm not talking about metering error here, nor am I talking 
>>about vignetting at the edges.  I'm talking about using my 50/1.4 to 
>>take a bunch of bracketed shots of a blank wall with manual exposure. 
>>If I get a pixel level of 128 near the image center at 1/30 at f/2.8, 
>>then I would expect to get the same level at 1/125 at f/1.4.  But I 
>>don't.  I need to slow the shutter to 1/80 to get the same shade of 
>>grey.  This is 2/3 of a stop more exposure than expected.  The same 
>>lens shows less than 1/3 stop loss with film.
>>
>>I'm curious if the RD-1 has a similar effect with f/2 and especially 
>>f/1.4 lenses.  Could some of you RD-1 owners who have Summiluxes and 
>>Noktons check this out and let us know?
>>
>>I'm sure all this has to do with sensor angle of acceptance vs. lens 
>>characteristics like exit pupil size and angle of the cone of light. 
>>There has been some talk of this on digicam forums, with the usual 
>>indistinguishable combination of heat and light.  I personally believe

>>that something is indeed going on.  I've seen too many examples of 
>>weird DSLR behavior with film lenses at maximum and minimum apertures.
>>
>>DSLR owners who have used the same fast lens on both a DSLR and film 
>>body, feel free to chime in, too.
>>
>>Thanks!
>>--Peter
>
>Good to hear you're feeling better!
>
>Happens on film, too. If you ever try to be systematic on film, and
>measure your exposures with a densitometer, you'll note the same 
>thing. The suspicion might come up that the manufacturers have 
>inflated their maximum f-stop numbers for the sake of marketing, but 
>due to the less than optimal diameters of lens elements, especially 
>fast ones (we're neither willing to pay for nor carry lenses with 
>optimal sizes) there is a lessening of effective, or T-stop for very 
>fast lenses. An f/1.4 lens will still be faster than an f/1.8, but 
>neither actually produces twice as much light on the film as the same 
>lens stopped down to f/2.8 resp. 3.5. Note that an f/1.4 lens stopped 
>down to f/2 will produce a denser neg than an f/2 lens wide open; but 
>you are carrying a much larger and more expensive 'f/2' lens in the 
>f/1.4 stopped down.
>
>The aperture marked on the lens is a geometric aperture, not a
>transmission aperture, from whence comes the 'T-stop'.
>---------------------------------------------------
>
>I should add that older lenses especially, and then rangefinder
>lenses on the R-D1 in particular, will have more fall off at the 
>corners as discussed here and at various other places, _and_ will 
>also have somewhat lower exposure levels at the center with fast 
>lenses due to the edge rays necessarily striking the center more 
>obliquely when the lens is used wide open, and thus exhibit some of 
>the same 'vignetting' at the center due to non-perpendicular rays.
>
>It might be that the E-1 is more sensitive to this as it was designed
>with 'digitally optimized' lenses in mind, and less compromised for 
>the sake of older lenses which did not have their ray bundles as 
>perpendicular to the sensor array as the E-1's own lenses.
>
>This isn't very noticeable on my 20D and might not be that noticeable
>on the R-D1 as the latter is definitely intended for 'non-optimized' 
>lenses.
>
>-- 
>    *            Henning J. Wulff
>   /|\      Wulff Photography & Design
>  /###\   mailto:henningw@archiphoto.com
>  |[ ]|     http://www.archiphoto.com
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In reply to: Message from bladman99 at yahoo.ca (Dan C) ([Leica] RD-1 users: Light loss with fast lenses?)